Taxi Driver Online

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I don't think licensing standards can be held responsible for the legal activity of drivers sitting in an area where they know work will be forthcoming. Regardless of where that area might be?

Private hire vehicles cannot be forced to return to the area in which they are licensed so the only option Liverpool has is to enforce the law. Do we know or have any idea how many offences of illegally plying for hire Liverpool has prosecuted in the last 12 months? I bet not many?

Regards

JD

Well there's certainly an element of standards shopping goes on, surely - ie licensing in a more lax area with a view to working in a more stringent one? I don't know if this is the case in the main impetus in Sefton, but in principle I'm sure it happens.





At most probably just scratching the surface if other areas are anything to go by.

And it presumbly isn't enough to act as any kind of proper deterrent.

Mike Dicko was done for picking up an LO who flagged him down though

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then perhaps take licensing away from those who cant enforce it?

the county councils do nowt, hows about them?

Captain Cab

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Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
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How about Offcab?

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offyerhead

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Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
George Carlin

[quote="TDO"][quote="captain cab"]Well yes, I agree, and that's why I'd like to see more uniform national standards, which would obviate the need to 'do a Sefton'.

Delta's management are also in favour of phasing in nationally recognised standards. All our supervisors are taking the VRQ level 2 course 'Transporting Passengers by Taxi and Private Hire' before it is rolled out to all of Delta's drivers. St Helens have adopted this pilot scheme in place of their previous knowledge test and Sefton look to be headed in the same direction. Merseytravel have secured funding to train every Sefton, Knowsley, Liverpool, Wirral and St Helens driver to a minimum, nationally recognised standard to enable taxi and private hire drivers to form part of Merseyside's Local Transport Plan. This will then allow substantial transport subsidies to be directed to taxi drivers as well as bus and train companies. Once the drivers are all nationally recognised as forming part of the public transportation network we might even get fuel tax rebates, who knows?

Whilst in some parts of the country, new drivers quite likely are choosing the softest Local Authority with the easiest knowledge test, it's not always the case. There are plenty of lads taking up a Sefton Badge (which does require a knowledge test) instead of a Knowsley Badge (which doesn't require a knowledge test) just so they can work for Delta.

Could you imagine the French authorities only allowing British Airways to drop off passengers in Paris but never pick up? Or perhaps the British authorities allowing Air France to drop off passengers in Heathrow so long as they fly away empty? And yet Sefton cabs dropping off in the city centre waste fuel and time to get back to Bootle, sometimes passing City hacks coming the other way with their light off too. In today's 'green' conscious society MPs are never keen to protect less efficient industries from more efficient competitors. Any firm investing more in technology, wasting less energy, and charging lower prices than all of it's competitors is more likely to be SUPPORTED by legislation, not RESTRICTED.

Whilst some drivers like to queue up with the same drivers and pick up the same customers in the same area week in, week out, there are plenty of other drivers who just want to clear their money as fast as possible and go home. Lots of drivers do this by staying mobile for as long as possible and empty for as little as possible.

A driver who does 130 jobs a week on a 100 car circuit will spend more on fuel than a driver who does 130 jobs a week on a 1000 car circuit.

This is because small circuits can only support small customer bases over a small area (plenty of BACK TO BASE dead miles).

Big circuits can support bigger customer bases over bigger areas resulting in less dead mileage. Whenever Delta drivers drop off, they are almost always still in an area prolific with Delta customers. It's not part of some evil plan to take over the world, it's just simple economy of scale.

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Don't knock it, 'til you try it....

There is nothing in the 1976 act which states a P/H driver needs to take a knowledge test. Those councils that currently apply such a condition are doing so under clause (2) A district council may attach to the grant of a licence under this section such conditions as they may consider reasonably necessary.

Any such condition can be appealed and probably successfully, however there is nothing to stop a Private hire operator from applying his own quality control regulations.

If I was a private hire driver and a council refused me a badge on failure to pass a knowledge test I wouldn't hesitate in appealing.
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51 Licensing of drivers of private hire vehicles.

(1) Subject to the provisions of this Part of this Act, a district council shall, on the receipt of an application from any person for the grant to that person of a licence to drive private hire vehicles, grant to that person a driver's licence: Provided that a district council shall not grant a licence—

(a) unless they are satisfied that the applicant is a fit and proper person to hold a driver's licence; or

(b) to any person who has not for at least twelve months been authorised to drive a motor car, or is not at the date of the application for a driver's licence so authorised.

(1B) For the purposes of subsection (1) of this section a person is authorised to drive a motor car if—

(a) he holds a licence granted under Part III of the Road Traffic Act 1988 (not being a provisional licence) authorising him to drive a motor car, or

(b) he is authorised by virtue of section 99A(1) [or section 109(1)] of that Act to drive in Great Britain a motor car.

(2) A district council may attach to the grant of a licence under this section such conditions as they may consider reasonably necessary.

(3) It shall be the duty of a council by which licences are granted in pursuance of this section to enter, in a register maintained by the council for the purpose, the following particulars of each such licence, namely—

(a) the name of the person to whom it is granted;

(b) the date on which and the period for which it is granted; and

(c) if the licence has a serial number, that number, and to keep the register available at its principal offices for inspection by members of the
public during office hours free of charge.
.........................................................................

Regards

JD

Will the real Trevor Jones please stand up?

So taxi plates in Liverpool are worth tens of millions because numbers are restricted and yet you think subisidies may be in the offing. You're winding us up, right?

I can't really see the case being made for general subisidies like fuel tax rebates either, since I think these are generally given where a service wouldn't be provided otherwise, such as a late evening or rural bus service which couldn't operate on the revenue from passengers alone.






Unless it's the likes of the Trev in Sefton or the Liverpool taxi trade generally

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But in general terms your post is very informative and illuminating Mr deltastaff.

And I think some of the points that you raise pertain to what I often say about LA boundaries and how they impact on trade regulation - they were drawn up for the purposes of local government generally, not for optimally regulating the economics and practicalities of the cab trade.

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And I wouldn't blame you, JD, good on you Sir! Many already have appealed to Sefton's licensing committee; individuals, private hire companies, even trade associations, many times over the last 15 years, but none have succeeded. The closest I recall Sefton came to scrapping the knowledge test was Delta's appeal in the early 1990s. When a conservative councillor (who's party had indicated support for Delta's request to scrap the test) failed to attend the licensing committee meeting on the night of the vote and a lib dem councillor who was there declared an interest as a Delta customer and refused to vote, the number of votes from those left were split right down the middle, with 50% (all lib dem and conservative) voting to scrap it and 50% (all labour) voting to keep it. The casting vote therefore went to the chairman, who happened to be a labour councillor, so he effectively got a second vote which overturned the request to scrap the test by a majority of one. I wonder if party politics were involved THAT night?

Historically, Sefton's knowledge test was first introduced in direct response to Sefton Hackney Carriage Association requests made through the T&GWU. They argued the test should be introduced to improve standards for the public whilst the private hire trade groups maintained it was a cheap lousy trick designed to restrict their growth. Whoever you believe the results were pretty emphatic with new badged drivers plummeting by 86% in the first six months after the test's introduction when compared with the first six months of the previous year.

This didn't last long though. Delta decided that if they couldn't scrap the test, why not embrace it? Their next Echo advert read 'FULL TRAINING PROVIDED FOR NEW RECRUITS', and they ploughed money into helping brand new unlicensed drivers straight from the job centre to pass the test (something most smaller firms couldn't afford to do). Ironically, in introducing the knowledge test the T&GWU had inadvertently handed Delta an advantage that could be used to pull away from the opposition.

Since that time the Sefton Cab Numbers have remained at 271, and Delta's drivers have gone from 200 to over 1,000. Of course it's not JUST the knowledge test. We've done a bit more advertising than the cabs and we've spent a few quid on fancy car computers too!

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Don't knock it, 'til you try it....

No sir, I'm dead serious! Not just Liverpool, the whole of Merseyside. Already in some parts of the country, instead of paying transport levies straight to bus and train companies to allow for pensioners using their travel passes, they issue travel tokens to passengers redeemable on buses, trains, taxis or private hire. The public then have the choice... use their tokens to pay for all the bus fare or part of a taxi fare. Four old dears can then pool their tokens and share a taxi to do a weekly door to door shop instead of struggling with bags at the bus stop!

I suspect the opportunities this may present to cabs however could be limited for two reasons...

Merseytravel wants to involve taxis more in Merseyside's transport solution, but before that can happen participating drivers must be up to a nationally recognised standard. Therein lies the first possible snag for the cabs. Most cab drivers I have spoken to have been very cynical about 'sitting some silly test to prove I know what I already know, I'll teach them a thing or two about driving, I've done it for 20 years' etc. Delta will probably just make it compulsory for all their drivers. That way they could approach Merseytravel and say 'All our drivers are of a nationally approved standard, can we have the work please?'

Also, Merseytravel will most likely want to be able to phone a firm on spec and say 'We've cancelled a bus route, can you send 15 cars to these locations and book it in on our account' etc. Cab firms traditionally struggle to coerce their drivers into carrying out radio credit work when there is cash work they can flag off the streets; not so with radio bookings only private hire circuits.

I honestly believe there is huge sums of government money ready to be spent more efficiently on taxis than buses, and it's just on the horizon. My guess is that if and when this does come off though, private hire look equipped to capitalise on the lion's share of it. Maybe not, who knows? Time will tell.

Finally, as regards fuel tax rebates, I must confess you are probably right sir, the government won't roll over on that one without a fight, but we can dream can't we?

Best regards

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Don't knock it, 'til you try it....

My suggestion was to appeal to the Magistrates court, not the licensing committee and if that failed I would appeal to the crown.

I'm all in favour of high quality control standards but I'm also a firm believer that the law should be applied as it is written. Considering there is nothing in the 1976 act which gives a council the power to make Private hire driver applicants sit a mandatory knowledge test then I have to come down on the side of the law.

Next time you go to renew your license ask John Thompson under which section of the 1976 act it states a Private hire driver has to have a mandatory knowledge test? I guarantee he says its a condition stipulated by the council under section 51 (2).

A district council may attach to the grant of a licence under this section such conditions as they may consider reasonably necessary.

The fact remains that it is not reasonably neccessary and I would be very surprised if such a condition was upheld in a court of law.

Regards

JD

Come on Mr D. you use the term knowledge, we both know that the sefton street knowledge test is just a sham. I have a good mined to, put it on here with the answers, just as you, give it to your perspective drivers. I doubt any one could fail it after, a few hours. If it were not so easy, I am sure your boss, if you are who you say you are, would have stamped his feet until it was removed. You never introduced the knowledge in Sefton until very recently .

1993 isn't that recent, Sefton's knowledge has stayed in pretty much the same format since it's introduction 13 years ago; that's a long time in taxis! I agree though, it is easy peasy, even to the point of being a sham, but it was still remarkably effective in putting off new recruits, probably because their preconceived ideas of 'the knowledge' scared them off. With a bit of help, support, confidence building, and a free ride to the test centre with a bunch of other new recruits they were less likely to 'bottle out' and stay on the dole. That support wasn't provided by many of the smaller firms, they couldn't keep their numbers up, and they sunk...

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