Taxi Driver Online

UK cab trade debate and advice
It is currently Thu Apr 30, 2026 8:03 am

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 122 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 10:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:56 pm
Posts: 1018
Location: London
So will 140 GMBPDB members and growing
OUR DAY WILL COME youd better believe it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

_________________
The views expressed by this contributor do not neccesarily reflect the policys of The GMB Nationally or of the GMB London Region.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 4:00 pm
Posts: 837
Location: BRIGHTON & HOVE
GMB Branch secretary wrote:
So will 140 GMBPDB members and growing
OUR DAY WILL COME youd better believe it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We are with you Brother Terry, another 9 lads signed up today :D


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 20 Extra WAV Plates
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:44 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:53 pm
Posts: 10381
captain cab wrote:
Blackpool vs. Red Cab Taxis?

CC


Not really. Possibly the Manchester Wav case might be more appropriate but each condition will be judged on its own merit, a magistrate will deem if it is lawfull or unreasonable or if that fails the crown court and if that fails then judicial review.

Blackpool was a general condition excluding all private hire drivers from parking in public places. Another ridiculous council condition and another good reason why licensing should be taken away from these idiots.

We'll have to wait and see what happens when one of these Brighton drivers hands in his radio and the council try to take away his proprietors license for not being a fit and proper person?

Regards

JD


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 07, 2006 8:26 pm
Posts: 8529
I might be wrong?. but I have a strong feeling that Warrington a couple years ago when they were issuing plates forWAVs made a condition that they had to register as a private hire operator, I think they have a system where the disabled ring the council and then they then phone the driver on his mobile....

_________________
Justice for the 96. It has only taken 27 years...........repeat the same lies for 27 years and the truth sounds strange to people!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2006 11:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:53 pm
Posts: 10381
MR T wrote:
I might be wrong?. but I have a strong feeling that Warrington a couple years ago when they were issuing plates forWAVs made a condition that they had to register as a private hire operator, I think they have a system where the disabled ring the council and then they then phone the driver on his mobile....


lol, unusual condition but I'm sure one of the Warrington lads will put us straight on that one?

Regards

JD


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:00 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 7:25 pm
Posts: 37494
Location: Wayneistan
Quote:
Not really. Possibly the Manchester Wav case might be more appropriate but each condition will be judged on its own merit, a magistrate will deem if it is lawfull or unreasonable or if that fails the crown court and if that fails then judicial review.

Blackpool was a general condition excluding all private hire drivers from parking in public places. Another ridiculous council condition and another good reason why licensing should be taken away from these idiots.

We'll have to wait and see what happens when one of these Brighton drivers hands in his radio and the council try to take away his proprietors license for not being a fit and proper person?

Regards

JD


But wasn't the Manchester case about new FX4's having to be WAV or something like that? It wasn't actually telling the HC's to be on radio circuits.

I thought the Blackpool case was about setting differing conditions on licenses.

regards

CC

_________________
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
George Carlin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:17 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:53 pm
Posts: 10381
captain cab wrote:


But wasn't the Manchester case about new FX4's having to be WAV or something like that? It wasn't actually telling the HC's to be on radio circuits.


The blackpool case related to the council imposing a condition on all private hire licenses that restricted them from parking in public places. It came about because Blackpool hackney carriage drivers protested to the council that there was wholesale plying for hire going on by P/H drivers.

The condition was ruled unlawfull but the appeal procedure should have been by way of magistrtates court and not judicial review, as we all know.

The Manchester case determined if it was reasonable and lawfull to place a condition on only a section of license holders and not on "ALL" license holders. It was determined that the council could have a policy of only issuing new licenses to vehicles that were constructed to carry wheelchair bound passengers, while not making it a condition on existing proprietors.

The end result was that Manchester eventually made it a condition that all vehicles had to be wav regadless of age?

This Brighton condition is not about vehicles its about forcing a driver to join a Radio circuit. It would be most interesting to see such a case go through court.

This is just another case of a council trying to use conditions to reframe legislation.

Regards

JD


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:23 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 7:25 pm
Posts: 37494
Location: Wayneistan
JD wrote:
captain cab wrote:


But wasn't the Manchester case about new FX4's having to be WAV or something like that? It wasn't actually telling the HC's to be on radio circuits.


The blackpool case related to the council imposing a condition on all private hire licenses that restricted them from parking in public places. It came about because Blackpool hackney carriage drivers protested to the council that there was wholesale plying for hire going on by P/H drivers.

The condition was ruled unlawfull but the appeal procedure should have been by way of magistrtates court and not judicial review, as we all know.

The Manchester case determined if it was reasonable and lawfull to place a condition on only a section of license holders and not on "ALL" license holders. It was determined that the council could have a policy of only issuing new licenses to vehicles that were constructed to carry wheelchair bound passengers, while not making it a condition on existing proprietors.

The end result was that Manchester eventually made it a condition that all vehicles had to be wav regadless of age?

This Brighton condition is not about vehicles its about forcing a driver to join a Radio circuit. It would be most interesting to see such a case go through court.

This is just another case of a council trying to use conditions to reframe legislation.

Regards

JD


But wasn't the outcome of the Blackpool case that it was unlawful to set restrictions on one set of traders at the behest of another group, or something similar?

I always thought the Manchester case was with regards to newly issued licenses?

Between the two I would have thought granting someone a HC license and then telling them how to use it was similar to the Blackpool scenario, but I will obviously bow to your post as you are quite right, it will make for good litigation :wink:

regards

CC

_________________
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
George Carlin


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2006 12:42 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:53 pm
Posts: 10381
captain cab wrote:
But wasn't the outcome of the Blackpool case that it was unlawful to set restrictions on one set of traders at the behest of another group, or something similar?

I always thought the Manchester case was with regards to newly issued licenses?


It was about newly issued licenses, but the stipulation of the license was that the vehicle had to be a WAV. It was contended that the condition was unlawful because it didn't apply to existing vehicles. The court ruled that the condition was not unlawfull and it has now become the main case that councils rely on to implement a wav only policy, while at the same time keeping existing saloon type vehicles.

The Blackpool case is exactly how I stated in fact you can read it for yourself below.

regards

JD
...............................................

R. v Blackpool BC Ex p. Red Cab Taxis Ltd
(QBD) Queen's Bench Division
29 April 1994

Times, May 13, 1994

Summary

Subject: Licensing

Abstract: The applicants were owners and operators of private hire vehicles. There had been a long-running dispute with the local hackney carriage drivers relating to private hire vehicles touting for trade. As a result of representations made by the hackney carriage drivers, the licensing authority decided to impose a condition on the private hire operators' licences that precluded them from standing at any public place, including privately owned land or premises to which persons had access whether as of right or not, without a pre-arranged booking. The applicants sought judicial review of the decision.

Summary: Held, dismissing the application on the basis that the applicants should have pursued their right of appeal to the justices rather than seek judicial review since other remedies were available, that the decision itself created a perception that one group had been disadvantaged at the behest of another and also created an opportunity for muddle and confusion. The decision-making process was unfair and flawed and the decision itself was arguably unreasonable (R. v Chief Constable of Merseyside Police Ex p. Calveley [1986] Q.B. 424, R. v Birmingham City Council Ex p. Ferrero [1993] 1 All E.R. 530 applied).


Judge: Judge, J.

Counsel: For RTC: Philip Engelman and Joanne Briggs. For BBC: Timothy Straker

Solicitor: For RTC: Betesh Partnership (Manchester). For BBC: David Eccles (Blackpool).

Cases Cited

R. v Birmingham City Council Ex p. Ferrero, [1993] 1 All E.R. 530; (1991) 155 J.P. 721; 89 L.G.R. 977; (1991) 3 Admin. L.R. 613; (1991) 10 Tr. L.R. 129; [1991] C.O.D. 476; (1991) 155 J.P.N. 522; (1991) 155 L.G. Rev. 645; Times, May 30, 1991; Independent, May 24, 1991 (CA (Civ Div))
R. v Chief Constable of Merseyside Ex p. Calveley, [1986] Q.B. 424; [1986] 2 W.L.R. 144; [1986] 1 All E.R. 257; [1986] I.R.L.R. 177; Times, November 28, 1985 (CA (Civ Div))

Case Comments

Conditions; Judicial review; Licensing; Local authorities powers and duties; Taxis. Private hire taxis: appeal or judicial review? L.G. and L. 1994, 4(7), 12

Conditions; Judicial review; Licensing; Local authorities powers and duties; Taxis. Licensing. L.A.L. 1994, 5, 6
END OF DOCUMENT
.......................................................

The Times

May 13, 1994, Friday

HEADLINE: Rectifying unreasonable taxi licence condition

BODY:
Queen's Bench Division. Regina v Blackpool Borough Council, Ex parte Red Cab Taxis Ltd and Others

Before Mr Justice Judge

(Judgment April 29)

Although a local authority had wrongly imposed an unreasonable condition on a licence issued to private hire cars, judicial review would not be granted as the aggrieved parties could seek rectification by statutory right of appeal.


Mr Justice Judge so stated in the Queen's Bench Division in dismissing an application for judicial review by Red Cab Taxis Ltd, five other taxi companies and three individual taxi operators, of a decision of Blackpool Borough Council on November 9, 1993 to attach to the grant of a private hire licence a condition which precluded an operator, proprietor or driver holding such a licence from permitting a private hire vehicle to stand at any public place other than in connection with a pre-arranged booking.

Mr Philip Engelman for the applicants; Mr Timothy Straker for Blackpool.

MR JUSTICE JUDGE said that the council had sought to resolve by consultation long standing differences between operators of hackney cabs and private hire vehicles.

Without warning, however, on receipt of complaints from the former group, it had introduced a new condition which, at its lowest, created the impression that the private hire cars were disadvantaged if not in fact so. That process was flawed.

Moreover, the condition itself lacked clarity and was obscure enough so as to be read as precluding private hire cars from standing at a public place on which they had a right to go or where they had a contractual obligation to go.


The local authority had power under the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1976 to grant licences subject to conditions where reasonably necessary. A condition whose objective was to hinder or prevent private hire cars from plying for hire at some sort of taxi rank would not have been ultra vires.

The condition as worded, however, if implemented to give advantage to hackney cabs would not be ''reasonably necessary''. As it could be read, the condition was not reasonable within the Wednesbury sense ((1948) 1 KB 223). His Lordship was assisted by the judgment of Lord Justice Kennedy in R v Hammersmith and Fulham London Borough Council, Ex parte Earls Court Ltd (The Times July 15, 1993).

Although the private hire operators had succeeded on the substantive issue, the exercise of judicial discretion was not straightforward because they also had a statutory right of appeal to the magistrates court.

In looking at the practical effect for the private hire operators the condition could be amended in the magistrates court as it could not be by the process of judicial review.


If one appellant in each category of operator, proprietor and driver succeeded before the magistrates, then that finding would apply for all.

If a test case failed, then individuals would be able to appeal, with the result applied to all the others affected.

Solicitors: Betesh Partnership, Manchester; Mr David Eccles, Blackpool.
...................................


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 8:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:56 pm
Posts: 1018
Location: London
I keep challenging you JD reframe the legislation surely we agree the current situation is crap, why not present an alternative, who knows GMB might want to help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

_________________
The views expressed by this contributor do not neccesarily reflect the policys of The GMB Nationally or of the GMB London Region.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 10:08 pm 
might help if we can get the law changed so that unlicensed drivers cant drive things like tuk tuks if they dont have a psv license.
and make non paymemnt a criminal offense all the time.
non of this civil debt nonsense. :sad:


Top
  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Dec 09, 2006 10:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 5:53 pm
Posts: 10381
GMB Branch secretary wrote:
I keep challenging you JD reframe the legislation surely we agree the current situation is crap, why not present an alternative, who knows GMB might want to help!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Its not a case of challenging me as to my opinion of new legislation, I just don't have the time right now to write the changes I think are needed. Like yourself and most other people on here we are all pretty busy and for me to do this right I need to set it out properly so people can understand the reasons for such change and what impact those changes might have on each individual.

I'm not the type of person who puts forward ammendments or resolutions without considering the effects such resolutions might have on all concerned. Everyone has their own personal opinion and whatsmore, they have the right to have their opinions heard before legislation is foisted upon them without a by your leave?

The excercise is no doubt hypothetical but I'll get around to it sooner or later if only to create some debate on TDO?

Regards

JD


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:45 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 9:56 pm
Posts: 1018
Location: London
JD understand, what i see on here and around the country, is a cess pit of ambiguity, think you in particular could be very helpful in sorting the problem,GMB recognise the problems need advice, ideas, debate, in effect a national policy.Ever thought of joining could plug you straight in to top level.Terry.

_________________
The views expressed by this contributor do not neccesarily reflect the policys of The GMB Nationally or of the GMB London Region.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 11:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 25, 2004 4:28 pm
Posts: 8998
Location: London
GMB Branch secretary wrote:
JD Ever thought of joining could plug you straight in to top level.Terry.


There's an offer now!

I'll send you your beret and green coat straight away. :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Dec 12, 2006 2:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 7:25 pm
Posts: 37494
Location: Wayneistan
GBC wrote:
GMB Branch secretary wrote:
JD Ever thought of joining could plug you straight in to top level.Terry.


There's an offer now!

I'll send you your beret and green coat straight away. :lol:


Now theres democracy :lol:

CC

_________________
Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
George Carlin


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 122 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 63 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group