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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 8:57 am 
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Press Release

National Consumer Council Letter

The NCC claim in their letter, that Local Councils which choose to regulate taxi numbers are doing so in defiance of Department for Transport guidance. This is simply not the case. Department for Transport guidance is that where regular surveys demonstrate there is no ‘significant unmet demand’ Councils may regulate taxi numbers. While many areas have removed regulation, they tend to be the more rural areas where demand is sporadic. The majority of large metropolitan areas have either kept limits, or re-introduced regulation.

The NCC claim that regulation disadvantages consumers, and protects taxi owners from competition, yet they offer no valid evidence to support this assumption.

In areas where regulation is in place, survey data shows that consumers are not disadvantaged, in fact they benefit from the regulation of taxi numbers. This may appear at first sight to be counter-intuitive, however, closer examination explains the apparent anomaly.

Where numbers are regulated, most taxis are double-manned. One driver uses the vehicle during the day, and another driver takes over at night. This makes cost-effective use of the vehicle and its licence.

In de-regulated areas, taxi fares tend to be more expensive pro rata and drivers are able to choose to work during the day, for reasons of personal convenience & safety. This leads to lower numbers of taxis available at night and particularly at weekends, especially at periods of peak demand. This is a very important consideration, as taxis help clear the city centres late at night, thereby reducing public disorder. The greater availability of taxis at night in regulated areas actually reduces the use of unlicensed vehicles, and does not, as the NCC suggest, increase the use of unlicensed vehicles - London’s experience with the illegal minicabs illustrates this point.

Where regulation has been removed, there may be an initial increase in the number of vehicles, but the lower revenue generation per vehicle quickly leads to reduced quality of maintenance, older vehicles being kept in use, higher emission levels and a less professional trade in general. This is borne out by the survey results from those areas which regulate numbers. The greater number of vehicles during the day leads to more vehicles driving around chasing fares, increasing traffic congestion and causing increased emissions. Many cities have also experienced this problem with bus de-regulation; local authorities are increasingly turning to quality bus contracts, which are in effect re-regulation, proving that market forces alone do not suffice.

In a regulated area, the greater utilisation of each vehicle leads to newer and better maintained vehicles, producing less emissions, more professional full-time drivers and better law enforcement.

Conveniently, in areas where regulation has been removed, there are no surveys to support the assumption of the NCC that an unlimited number of licences equates to a better level of service. There are, however, a growing number of areas that have found the exact opposite to be the case, and have re-introduced regulation to address these very issues. Subsequent surveys have confirmed the fact that delimitation has not been beneficial to the travelling public.

The NCC repeatedly quote the OFT report, yet fail to mention that this report was heavily criticised by the Transport Select Committee for the poor quality of the research on which it was based.

Customer demand varies by time of day, day of week, and holiday periods, so it is inevitable that on some occasions, customers may have to queue for a taxi. This applies equally to any retail or service business which experiences fluctuating demand. Removing limits does not address this issue, as anyone who has tried to get a taxi in London (where numbers are not limited) on a Saturday night will know.

At weekends in particular, town centres and cities fill as the public travel in using various forms of public transport, over a period of several hours. As pubs and clubs close, over a short period of time, they all want to go home. As buses, trains and trams reduce service or stop for the night, the burden is placed on the taxi driver.

Taxis are a fundamental part of the transport infrastructure, and should be considered in relation to the whole of the Local transport plan, not in isolation as the NCC has done.

The NTTG dispute the NCC assumption that the value of licence plates in regulated areas indicates that customer demand is not being met, and this is again supported by the survey data. The value of plates in regulated areas merely demonstrates that a well utilised taxi can be a viable business., in which people are prepared to invest.

There needs to be a balance between the supply of taxis and customer demand. Failure to achieve balance between the two leads to poor quality of service. Local Councils, with the aid of regular surveys, are best placed to manage the situation. The NTTG believes that surveys should be carried out by all local authorities for their local transport plans whether they have limitation in place or not so as to ascertain consumer satisfaction and is surprised that the NCC appears to overlook the value to the consumer of this.

The ‘Taxi Facts’ quoted by the NCC were taken from a survey carried out in the middle of December 2006, which has not been circulated at the same time as their letter. This was, we are told, a survey of 1000 representative consumers, however this is not a representative time of year, being the immediate run-up to Christmas. Secondly, what is the relevance of consumers knowing that Councils can impose quantity controls. Do these same consumers know that local Councils set the fares for taxis, or is it likely they would assume that if there were more taxis, the fares would be lower?

The ‘rigorous research’ of the NCC in this instance seems to comprise a survey of Christmas shoppers and information from a website run by persons who prefer to remain unknown. It appears to be based largely on assumption, and does not take into account the level of taxi and other transport fares, the availability of other modes of public transport or indeed show any concession to ‘joined up transport’.


The National Taxi Trade Group 23/02/2007

For further information, please contact secretary@nttg.org.uk
or telephone 0161 969 1149


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 9:51 am 
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Gezzer wrote:
Where numbers are regulated, most taxis are double-manned. One driver uses the vehicle during the day, and another driver takes over at night. This makes cost-effective use of the vehicle and its licence.


Trafford phone number? That explains it. These guys in Trafford are never seen after 2 oclock maybe i should repost that empty pic of Altrinchams main Taxi rank, double shift system? who's this guy trying to convince? lol

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:09 pm 
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Gezzer wrote:
Press Release

National Consumer Council Letter

The NCC claim in their letter, that Local Councils which choose to regulate taxi numbers are doing so in defiance of Department for Transport guidance. This is simply not the case. Department for Transport guidance is that where regular surveys demonstrate there is no ‘significant unmet demand’ Councils may regulate taxi numbers. While many areas have removed regulation, they tend to be the more rural areas where


The National Taxi Trade Group 23/02/2007

For further information, please contact secretary@nttg.org.uk
or telephone 0161 969 1149
Absolutly right London, Birmingham Coventry ,Wolverhampton, etc etc are very rural . Does any body , believe any of this crud . Mrs C your taking the [edited by admin] even the Captain and his crew are not that supid . to believe this pile of crap. or perhaps they are . Streetcars


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:47 pm 
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Gezzer wrote:
The NCC claim in their letter, that Local Councils which choose to regulate taxi numbers are doing so in defiance of Department for Transport guidance. This is simply not the case. Department for Transport guidance is that where regular surveys demonstrate there is no ‘significant unmet demand’ Councils may regulate taxi numbers. While many areas have removed regulation, they tend to be the more rural areas where demand is sporadic. The majority of large metropolitan areas have either kept limits, or re-introduced regulation.

So would the 'whoever you are' critisize councils that don't survey, and it turn support de-limitation in those areas? :?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:50 pm 
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Gezzer wrote:
Where numbers are regulated, most taxis are double-manned. One driver uses the vehicle during the day, and another driver takes over at night. This makes cost-effective use of the vehicle and its licence.

And why can't that happen in a de-limited area?

And why shouldn't drivers be able to choose to work when they want, not the owner?

What if he wants to work a bit longer?

What's the difference between 200 single manned vehicles, and 100 double shifted vehicles, in terms of public service?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:52 pm 
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Gezzer wrote:
In de-regulated areas, taxi fares tend to be more expensive pro rata.

Evidence for that please?

Are we agreed that our only income is from customers? If so then who in the end pays for the £50,000 plate? :?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:54 pm 
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Gezzer wrote:
This leads to lower numbers of taxis available at night and particularly at weekends, especially at periods of peak demand. This is a very important consideration, as taxis help clear the city centres late at night, thereby reducing public disorder.

So are you saying we are all thick?

We are all going to sit picking our noses during the day earning nothing, but when it's mobbed at peak times, we are all watching the telly? :?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:57 pm 
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Gezzer wrote:
The NTTG dispute the NCC assumption that the value of licence plates in regulated areas indicates that customer demand is not being met, and this is again supported by the survey data. The value of plates in regulated areas merely demonstrates that a well utilised taxi can be a viable business., in which people are prepared to invest.

And can be lost in days, as 1000s have in the last few years. [-X

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:00 am 
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Sussex wrote:
Gezzer wrote:
Where numbers are regulated, most taxis are double-manned. One driver uses the vehicle during the day, and another driver takes over at night. This makes cost-effective use of the vehicle and its licence.

And why can't that happen in a de-limited area?

And why shouldn't drivers be able to choose to work when they want, not the owner?

What if he wants to work a bit longer?

What's the difference between 200 single manned vehicles, and 100 double shifted vehicles, in terms of public service?


For a start, the 200/100 equation dragged out by you (myth and reality) is simply untrue.

Derby for one of many, befor dereg, 51 vehicles, now 315.

Thats a 600% increase, not 100%

Derby council are reported to be "considering" a cap on numbers.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:05 am 
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Gezzer wrote:

The value of plates in regulated areas merely demonstrates that a well utilised taxi can be a viable business., in which people are prepared to invest.



In other words, treating drivers like serfs and forcing them to drive the limited numbers of taxis means that the cartel of license holders can profiteer from those who can't get a license of their own.

As for the rest of that stuff, have the NTTG/NTA et al still not seen through it?

Well, of course they have, but anything goes as far as maintaining the cartel is concerned.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:12 am 
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jimbo wrote:
For a start, the 200/100 equation dragged out by you (myth and reality) is simply untrue.

Derby for one of many, befor dereg, 51 vehicles, now 315.

Thats a 600% increase, not 100%



You presumably missed the word "hypothetical" Jimbo, thus to say that it was "untrue" doesn't make sense.

And if you bothered the rest of M&R then you probably wouldn't have raised the point at all.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:02 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
Gezzer wrote:
This leads to lower numbers of taxis available at night and particularly at weekends, especially at periods of peak demand. This is a very important consideration, as taxis help clear the city centres late at night, thereby reducing public disorder.

So are you saying we are all thick?

We are all going to sit picking our noses during the day earning nothing, but when it's mobbed at peak times, we are all watching the telly? :?


if the cap fits................................. :) :) :)


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:09 pm 
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jimbo wrote:
Sussex wrote:
Gezzer wrote:
Where numbers are regulated, most taxis are double-manned. One driver uses the vehicle during the day, and another driver takes over at night. This makes cost-effective use of the vehicle and its licence.

And why can't that happen in a de-limited area?

And why shouldn't drivers be able to choose to work when they want, not the owner?

What if he wants to work a bit longer?

What's the difference between 200 single manned vehicles, and 100 double shifted vehicles, in terms of public service?


For a start, the 200/100 equation dragged out by you (myth and reality) is simply untrue.

Derby for one of many, befor dereg, 51 vehicles, now 315.

Thats a 600% increase, not 100%

Derby council are reported to be "considering" a cap on numbers.


.....and Burnleys decision has been called in for relooking at................. :!:


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 5:04 pm 
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foxy100 wrote:
.....and Burnleys decision has been called in for relooking at................. :!:

As will be the govs decision not to reppeal section 16 when OFT 2 is sorted. :wink:

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2007 6:06 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
Gezzer wrote:
The NCC claim in their letter, that Local Councils which choose to regulate taxi numbers are doing so in defiance of Department for Transport guidance. This is simply not the case. Department for Transport guidance is that where regular surveys demonstrate there is no ‘significant unmet demand’ Councils may regulate taxi numbers. While many areas have removed regulation, they tend to be the more rural areas where demand is sporadic. The majority of large metropolitan areas have either kept limits, or re-introduced regulation.

So would the 'whoever you are' critisize councils that don't survey, and it turn support de-limitation in those areas? :?




The removal of numerical control by any council as far as I'm concerned clearly states to me that the licensing section has failed to perform the job it is there to do, and by removing numerical control they hide that failure, Councillors rely on the information licensing officers supply to than, and their decisions are based on this information.

The removal of numerical control is an admission by the council that it has failed to keep control of the Hackney fleet.
The removal of numerical control allows the licensing department to sweep under the carpet the fact that it has failed,
It removes a great deal of work from the licensing department, no more surveys, by doing this the department's failure is never exposed.

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