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PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 8:01 pm 
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If I can add my penneth,

there seems to be difference between whats morally right and whats legally right.

I think John has put the legal situation, which is hard to take but its the truth, perhaps if someone in watfords T&G had taken Johns position the situation could have been resolved. However, I think if we look at it, eventually we will find the T&G looking into the matter and making changes. Sometimes you've got to tell people what they dont want to hear.

Morally, Nidge is right, as HC's should have access to stations as we complement the service. we should not be charged for this and I think the public would agree, once more the HC trade is being attacked by leeches.

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Captain Cab

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 8:39 pm 
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captain cab wrote:
Morally, Nidge is right, as HC's should have access to stations as we complement the service. we should not be charged for this and I think the public would agree, once more the HC trade is being attacked by leeches.


The problem arises in some areas that have a fixed number of HC permits.

In those areas, drivers with permits don't want those without, sharing the spoils.

It's attitudes like this, that allows railways and the like to ride rough-shot over the HC trade.

Free and open is a reasonable shout, but it should apply to all, not just a selected few. :(

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 8:44 pm 
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permits are of course another issue

free and open should mean what it says, period.

to advocate a policy where free and open applies in one area, but not in another, is asking for trouble.

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Captain Cab

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 Post subject: Dolt
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:04 pm 
Anonymous wrote:
Clod, sorry Claude

How do people in London know what a PH is they have only just been licensed there. The public don't care, that is the point. They want cheap and reliable is all that matters not the license. Pull your head out from your ass and realise your monopoly has gone, along with your credability.


Dear Guest you are such a dolt. This is the Premier City. PH has been here for years. Has PH appeared overnight due to licensing? Of course people know the difference. And most prefer a taxi. Yes all you muppets that is a taxi not a peanut paid I can press an accelerater therefor I am a taxi driver. No you are a monkey masquerading hoping for a few peanuts to tossed aside from your betters.

Cheap AND reliable? Surely a contradiction. Cheap means corners are cut, standards are reduced and the lowliest calibre people are employed. That is what people know in London.

The right to ply for hire exclusively resides with the HC trade so what has gone? What credability has gone?

World renown we are mate. Stew in yer jealous juices.

Claude :evil:


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 Post subject: Sussex off on a tangent
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:19 pm 
Sussex Man wrote:
As each year goes by, more and more of the London Black cab firms are either adding PH to their circuits, or sharing contracts with them. :D :D

The customers want both, and the difference between HC and PH is getting decidedly blurred. :shock:


What has that got to do with the thread!!

Silly Mr T said; "It is the Taxi trade, there is no PH trade, there are only vehicles that do taxi work under a different license.."

I said a taxi is defined by law.

Regards
Claude :evil:


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 Post subject: Re: Dolt
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:21 pm 
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Claude wrote:
Dear Guest you are such a dolt. This is the Premier City. PH has been here for years. Has PH appeared overnight due to licensing? Of course people know the difference. And most prefer a taxi.


I'm not so sure if the facts say that most prefer a taxi.

Most people in your manor go from A to B via the mini-cab trade.

Some even prefer to go from A to B via a bike. :shock: :shock:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:22 pm 
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John Davies. wrote:
Providing we have room, here's what we will be putting in the next issue of our trade mag.

For the past three years, Watford Hackney carriage drivers have refused to pay Silverlink the company who administer Watford station the required Permit fee of £355 for the privilege of plying for hire on the Station Taxi rank.

The Taxi drivers withheld payment because they were disputing the rights of Silverlink to install a private hire freephone, increase the annual permit payment and the use of private hire firms for their lucrative account work.

In Watford they have what they call a docket system, a station official would provide the first driver on the Taxi rank with a credit slip to take passengers to their home destination, or in some cases Heathrow Airport. On completion of the journey, Silverlink would reimburse the driver on production of the docket.

Silverlink wanted the option to use any firm they pleased but the Hackney carriage drivers wanted complete exclusivity of all account work.

The drivers are also of the opinion that if they pay Silverlink an annual permit fee for the privilege of plying for hire on the station, they should not have to compete with a free direct line to a private firm.

The third bone of contention of the Hackney carriage drivers was that Silverlink wanted to increase the permit fee substantially. Silverlink intimated if they could have reached agreement with the Hackney carriage drivers, the permit fee would have remained unchanged

After several years of conflict and no payments from the Taxi drivers, the Station authorities finally said enough is enough. In the later part of 2003 Silverlink put the Station Public hire contract out to tender, they invited applications from both the Taxi and Private hire trade to service that contract.

The said Contract has now been awarded to a local Private hire company who trades under the name of AA United. The Hackney Carriage drivers, who collectively could have tendered for the contract, sought not to do so. The reason for not tendering was explained by Mr. Sardar the T & G workers representative. He said, because the dispute between the two sides was still unresolved it would have been pointless in tendering for the contract.

According to Mr Sardar, at the final meeting between the two sides which took place in the summer of 2003, the Hackney Carriage drivers were given an ultimatum by the then station manager, to accept the way Silverlink conducts its business, or get off the Station.

In January 2004 the station authorities moved Watford Hackney Carriage drivers off the station taxi rank and replaced them with Private hire vehicles from AA United.

Watford is a large mainline station but has a relatively small Taxi Rank of fourteen spaces.

A press officer for Silverlink said they have only excluded Hackney Carriages from standing and plying for hire on the Station Taxi Rank. They have not placed any restriction on Hackney Carriages picking up at the station if hailed by a member of the public. The Hackney Carriage drivers say this is not true. They paint a vastly different picture to the one portrayed by Silverlink.

They say the rank area has been transformed to comply with the legal definition of what constitutes a private road. No public vehicles are allowed in the rank area and Taxis have a different dropping off point. There are signs up saying Authorised vehicles only and no public vehicles beyond this point.

One Hackney carriage driver complained of intimidation by station police and employees of AA United. The driver also stated that AA united had employed two Bouncers to prevent Hackney carriage drivers from picking up members of the public at the station. He states on one occasion passengers were dragged out of his vehicle by AA united employees.

Silverlink and Watford Taxi licensing department have reached an agreement on the legality of the Private hire vehicles being parked at the station. The agreement stipulates that only eight vehicles may stand on the Taxi rank, vehicles must at all times prior to hire be vacant and the driver must not be in the vicinity of his vehicle.

Watford Licensing department issued a full statement on 17/2/04 stating both they and the local police were happy with the arrangements at Watford Station. They pointed out that the station would be monitored closely and any infringement of licensing laws will be acted upon.

The following is an extract taken from the press release issued by Watford Taxi Licensing Dept on 17/2/04.

The Council has a government advised way of taking enforcement action, called the Enforcement Concordat, which is to give advice to potential law breakers on what they should and should not do. If this advice is not acted upon within an appropriate time frame then more formal methods, including prosecuting offenders, are used. In the Council's view the time has come for more formal action in relation to AA United at Watford Junction as the advice given by council enforcement officers is not being heeded. If one day a driver keeps to the law, but the following day breaks it, then it's hardly a u-turn to take action on the second day but not the first.

The hackney carriage drivers could have averted the whole situation by working with Silverlink to reach an agreement before the contract for the station forecourt was even put out to tender. Watford Borough Council had no part to play in the award of this contract, indeed when the hackney carriage drivers union contacted the Mayor's Office about the tender they were advised to put in a tender for the contract. The role of the Council and the Police in this is in relation to upholding the law and preventing the occurrence of criminal offences.

The Council, as always, is rigorously enforcing regulations and byelaws relating to private hire vehicles and hackney carriages, and both sets of drivers, throughout the Borough as well as at Watford Junction. The Council has a proven track record of prosecuting private hire drivers who illegally ply for hire.

It would appear that Watford Hackney carriage drivers from the start of this dispute have been wrongly advised. From past experience we here in Manchester have always been aware of the fine line between a good working relationship and total exclusion.

In Manchester, we have always sought to apply our efforts to what is right; not what we think might be right. That is why we always seek advice if we are unsure of our legal standing. The situation at Watford station is not unique and some may see the distinct correlation between Watford station and Manchester Airport.

For those who are unsure of the legalities of what Silverlink have done, you must be aware that both the Railways and Airport Authorities can set bye laws appertaining to their own property. What they cannot do is breach statute legislation. It may be that the only relief for Watford Hackney carriage drivers will be through the courts. Whether or not they can find the money to finance such a decision is debatable.

It would be ironic if the 1977 Cardiff case of Hullin v Cook came back to haunt the Railways. In that case, Cook the driver of a Hackney cab was prosecuted for plying for hire on Railway property without permission. The owner of the vehicle was also prosecuted for aiding and abetting.

If any of the private hire drivers were to be prosecuted and found guilty of the offence of plying for hire, it may follow that the station are also guilty of the offence of aiding and abetting. It could be argued that Silverlink aided the private hire drivers to commit the offence by inviting them onto the station with the explicit purpose of taking passengers from the station for hire and reward.

At this stage, the Hackney drivers down in Watford are in a bit of a mess. They have no realistic prospects of getting back on the station and the local licensing department has made their position clear.

It must be a case of watch this space.

Copyright


John,

Although you have put this on the forum, for all to see, TDO has many visitors who just go to the 'front-page', and read the articles there.

Would you have any objection if we put up your story, in it's entirety un-edited, when we next up-date our 'front-page'?

Alex

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 1:14 am 
Alex wrote:

John,

Although you have put this on the forum, for all to see, TDO has many visitors who just go to the 'front-page', and read the articles there.

Would you have any objection if we put up your story, in it's entirety un-edited, when we next up-date our 'front-page'?

Alex


I have no objection but I think it would be wise to omit the paragragh about Manchester. It only has a relevance to us here in Manchester. I think if you are going to put it on the front page it should encapsulate the situation in Watford and not Manchester. I think it would also be advisable to mention that Mr Kavanagh has been advising Mr Sarwar. Mr Sarwar was and still is in daily contact with him.

You are probably aware that I had a very long conversation with Mr Sarwar, he is a very nice gentleman but alas I believe he has been guided by the stronger personality and experiance of Mr Kavanagh.

Fortunately, the article was written from an unbiased view and I just reported the facts. My own personal opinion is that the situation could have been handled better. However, It is up to each individual to look at the facts and reach their own conclusion. One thing you can be assured of and that is the editorial is balanced and factual. I have my doubts that others reporting the situation in Watford will do the facts justice as I have done.

I will ammend the paragragh that mentions Manchester and if you want to add the information that Mr Sarwar is being advised by Mr Kavanagh I will include a line which states that.

I will send you privately a list of contacts and phone numbers from whom the information was gathered, but please keep the names private.

I'll await your instructions.

Best wishes

John Davies.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 5:40 am 
John Davies. wrote:
Alex wrote:

John,

Although you have put this on the forum, for all to see, TDO has many visitors who just go to the 'front-page', and read the articles there.

Would you have any objection if we put up your story, in it's entirety un-edited, when we next up-date our 'front-page'?

Alex

Quote:
You are probably aware that I had a very long conversation with Mr Sarwar.


Mr Sardar of course, not Sarwar. My opologies.

JD


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 9:31 am 
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Thanks for that John.

If you wish, you can amend the article yourself, so it reads how you want it too. Then send it to info@taxi-driver.co.uk .

Otherwise we will do it for you.

Alex

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 4:49 pm 
Alex wrote:
Thanks for that John.

If you wish, you can amend the article yourself, so it reads how you want it too. Then send it to info@taxi-driver.co.uk .

Otherwise we will do it for you.

Alex


Email sent, with attached documents.

Best wishes.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:22 pm 
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John,
Two questions...Firstly which trade mag are you writing for?
Secondly is it cheap? :wink:
Ged

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 8:47 pm 
gedmay wrote:
John,
Two questions...Firstly which trade mag are you writing for?
Secondly is it cheap? :wink:
Ged


The article will be going out in the TODA Bulletin, Ged. It may be published perhaps by the end of March, I would think more than likely it will be April. If it is not published in full by the end of March, I’m quite sure there will be a news letter circulated explaining the events that have taken place over the past month. I also assume the available options left open to the Trade will be highlighted so that everyone will be in no doubt as to the timetable of events, should the Government decide to implement the findings of the OFT report.

There is a lot of content to coming out between now and then. The OFT response to the Select committee report is out next week and the Joint Ministers report will be out the week after. There is a lot going on.

It depends on availability of space what actually goes in the next issue of the bulletin but it should be a good read.

There is also something going on with regard to the implementation of the OFT report that very few people now about. The next few weeks should be very interesting. I’m sure everyone will have a lot to talk about after I depart on the 12th March.

I'm off out to earn a few bob now.

Best wishes.

JD


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 8:56 pm 
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John Davies. wrote:
There is also something going on with regard to the implementation of the OFT report that very few people now about. The next few weeks should be very interesting. I’m sure everyone will have a lot to talk about after I depart on the 12th March.


John, if you wish to tell little old Sussex about what's going on, then I will not tell anyone. :roll: :roll: :roll:

As for you departing, have you gained permission from those behind TDO, to do so? :wink:

Oh, and what about my tenner? :shock:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 26, 2004 9:44 pm 
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John,
12th of March????
Ged

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