Taxi Driver Online

So one of the company's that operates this has been taken to court. That is good news especially as you say it was thrown out. It would be interesting to know what was actually said at the court. Is it reported anywhere?

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Grandad,

As this was thrown out of court that must now surely put this subject to bed, but somehow i dont think certain members of this forum will be happy to do that as certain members are not happy unless they are trying to make some other persons life a misery, and no im not talking about the people with genuine concerns that are happy once proved either wrong or misinformed!!

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Legal and proud

Loads a love from BERTIE !!

I think Sussex might be playing a game of cat and mouse with you when he asked about your licenses?

Most of us are under the impression that limousines adapted to comply with minibus status are not licensed as PSV vehicles and now you say they are? According to the article regarding the vehicle pulled in Dundee it didn't have a PSV conditions of fitness certificate therefore it wasn't licensed as a PSV. Under those circumstances it wouldn't make any difference who held what license because as you well know it is an offence for a person to drive on a road a motor vehicle of any class otherwise than in accordance with a licence authorising him to drive a motor vehicle of that class. Was the vehicle in Dundee operating as a licensed PSV?

You will also be aware that it is an offence for a person to cause or permit another person to drive on a road a motor vehicle of any class otherwise than in accordance with a licence authorising that other person to drive a motor vehicle of that class.

So if the limousine that is carrying fare paying passengers is not licensed as a PSV vehicle then the driver license is immaterial is it not?



I'm afraid you are losing sight of the concept of hire or reward, self drive hire only becomes self drive hire when the service is available to the general public. If you are now saying that these adapted limousines can be driven by any member of the public who holds the appropriate license then that is a departure from what we have been lead to believe.

However I have my doubts that the general public would be allowed to drive one of these vehicles, in fact when I phoned one of the limo companies yesterday I was told it was not possible for the hirer of the vehicle to drive the limo, even if they held the correct license. So it would seem you guys are not singing from the same hymn book.

I am intrigued by your reference to Chauffeur's as though being a chauffeur somehow exempts them from the law?

In respect of hire or reward a chauffeur is a driver just like any other driver and if he offers his services to the general public for hire or reward then he requires a licensed vehicle with the appropriate insurance that is compatible with any license he himself might hold?

Perhaps you can tell me this, does your adapted schedule six limo, have a VOSA conditions of fitness certificate? And if it doesn't why not?

And why are you keeping shy about this legal eagle who knows all about hire or reward? Don't you think we could learn something from him because up to now all you have done is troop out the same old theory citing schedule six as a way of circumventing licensing legislation.

Perhaps you or he can cite some case law to give your new found theory some substance? That should be interesting?

Oh! I forgot, how about you give us some details of this 30 minute Magistrates court case because I'm intrigued by your reference to "thrown" out? You never did elaborate on what exactly was thrown out?

Regards

JD

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Come on JD thrown out means exactly that, thrown out, you know it basicly means no case to answer, is that not sufficient?????

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Legal and proud

Loads a love from BERTIE !!

I know what it means, I would like to know exactly what the charge was and the circumstances. Surely thats not too much to ask? lol

By the way, as you well know, I've never been against limo operators operating, in fact I've always said there is a place for them and modern legislation is needed to accommodate them. The problem I have now is in relation to what amounts to the activity of hire or reward by from what I can gather unlicensed vehicles?

I'm not remotely bothered about limos being adapted to the status of minibus but I am slightly concerned about the untested theory of the legality of running a business for the purpose of carrying passengers for hire or reward.

Mr limo is under the impression that just because his colleagues call their business "self drive hire" that that is sufficient to get around the concept of hire or reward? I think he is fooling himself if he thinks a court of law will look on these businesses as self drive hire if the general public who have the necessary license are prevented from driving these vehicles. Mr Limo may not realise it but the courts will tell him and his colleagues what type of business they run based on the perceived activity and not the other way around.

Regards

JD

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Copyright notice © The contents of this post are copyright of JD and are not to be reproduced outside of TDO without written permission.

I am sorry JD but thick as s-hit comes to mind the case was in newbury and the vehicle was on self drive hire the chauffeur mag will be doing a write up soon about it when they have spoke with the solictor so that people get the true facts not bulls-it shame some people on here can't get it into there head that it is a legall way of operating if it is done right if it is not then you will get nicked the same goes for operating a taxi you can do it right or wrong it seems to me you have a big problem with limos and why is it you lot always hide there profile have you got something to hide because theres one thing for certain we haven't

I don't have a big problem with limos and never have, however some do but this is only because they know that so many operate unlicensed. I've always said legislation is needed to accommodate limos because I believe they are not going to go away and they do offer a service. I may not like the traffic jams they cause but if they are licensed then they have a right to trade just like everyone else.

Some on here are anty limo and some are anty hackney and some are anty private hire, being hostile to a certain sector of the hire or reward trade is nothing new and some enjoy the rivalry but I don't think anyone really hates anyone else to such an extent that it gets over personal?

My main concern is the legality of the exercise being undertaken by you limo guys in respect of hire or reward. The conversions under schedule six are neither here nor there to me. However TDO does pride itself on doing things right and I must admit that this activity which surfaced in Dundee is new to us and has caught our imagination. So much so that we question its legality.

We can't take the legality of activity for granted just because you or anyone else gives an opinion that it is legal? We are too seasoned and know too much about the law of hire or reward to take for granted what we believe might be illegal under certain circumstances. Thats why we raised the debate but I am sure, that like me, you will welcome clarification in the courts and if you win, then I'm sure those owners who own all those large vehicles that can seat 16 passengers, will be more than happy.

Regards

JD

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Except maybe Edinburgh

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http://wingsoverscotland.com/ http://www.newsnetscotland.com/

JD you are spot on here. If honest guys need to masquerade as "self drive" or anything else to operate, whether it's legal or not, the system is the problem. The powers that be need to get this sorted as a matter of urgency so these guys know where they stand. The decent guys in the the limo trade will then be able to conduct their business in an open and honest fashion, and the authorities will be able to do something about the cowboys as well. Lets hope someone in power is listening.

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http://wingsoverscotland.com/ http://www.newsnetscotland.com/

Cases can be thrown out of a mags court for a million zillion reasons, and only one of them is due to the legal basis of the charge.

TBH if a case is thrown out within 30 minutes I would say it was due to one of the other million zillion reasons, as if it was down to the legal basis of the charge then it would take a lot of time for the legal debate to take place and then for the mags to decide on.

IMO a minimum of a morning session.

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IDFIMH

Did I get an answer to these questions?

A simple yes or no will suffice.

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IDFIMH

As Mr A Class has already stated Mr S the chauffeur magazine will be doing a write up regarding the facts of this case so lets just wait and see shall we!!

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Legal and proud

Loads a love from BERTIE !!

Absolutely, just as the government regularly orders a report when they want folks to forget about an issue.

As you know I'm not the best fan of limos, the ones locally are an utter disgrace, run by the lowest of the low. I know there are good ones, and you and grandad fit that bill to a tee.

But when TDO starts a thread and the first comment is we are talking out of our ar-e, and the second comment is that we are as thick as s-hit, then that just confirms my thoughts.

I hoped to gain more information on the limo site, but the schedule 6 section is well and truly hidden. Surely if everything was hunky dory then it wouldn't matter a jot who looked at it.

If it was 100% legal then why hide?

Can you imagine anyone from the taxi/PH side coming on here and saying they have a great scam to get around the law of the land, and getting applauded for it?

As I have said before there are some good guys out there driving limos, it's just I never see them. I see the regular spot-checks from the police/vosa etc and the empty limos that are overweight, FFS how can that be? The ones without tax, the ones with too many punters in, the ones with the bald tyres etc etc. Yes that happens in the taxi/PH trade, but that doesn't make it any better.

I don't know how many hummers I've seen, but none of them have any PSVs badges in the window. How legal is that?

So if any Limo chap out there could answer my question as to whether or not the self-drive limo is PSV licensed, and if the self-drive driver is licensed I would be most grateful.

I would also appreciate if someone could tell me who the PSV operator of the vehicle is as well.

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IDFIMH

I suppose this is one version of self-drive hire.

http://www.halifaxcourier.co.uk/local-n ... 3137734.jp

Now limo chaps on here, what's the chance of that hummer being licensed via the schedule 6 lark?

Surely can't be this chap can it?

http://www.motortrader.com/25617/VOSA-c ... l-li.ehtml

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IDFIMH

If this reference is directed at me as a personal insult then it doesn't really say much for your comprehension of the legal system. I asked you to explain the nature of the charges and the reasons for the discontinuation of those charges? You still haven't explained the nature of the charges or the reasons why they were discontinued? You also haven't answered any of the questions put to you in respect of licensed vehicles or who the mythical person is who gave you a little sustenance in your continued quest to circumvent licensing laws. You can't offer any case law to support your theory about hire or reward and likewise you cannot furnish us with any details in respect of vehicle insurance or terms of contract?

Just like Sussex, I would have thought that any person carrying on a bona-fide business would be only too pleased to publicise their credentials but alas it seems to me that those who operate unlicensed vehicles under schedule six, such as yourself, are a little concerned that their activity might not be as legitimate as you would have us believe?



I suppose if you have to consult the Solicitor then you don't know the full facts yourself? So why did you state "thick as chit?" If you are in the same position as everyone else on here then the term would apply to you too, would it not?? Do you think we on TDO are mind readers?



How do you know what’s legal? Perhaps you have a draw full of case law to back up your opinion? On the other hand I can categorical say that you don't.

However, because you probably haven’t got a clue as to what constitutes hire or reward you will no doubt be oblivious to the mountain of case law at my disposal to back up my own position in that respect. Now I bet you and your legal mentor would dearly love to see this case law so with that in mind I just might pursue this infringement of the law to its natural conclusion. Perhaps if I write to those entrusted with the task of enforcing breaches of licensing law explaining my reasons for believing the activity might be illegal, the better it will be for you and your colleagues.

I am quite sure that you and your colleagues would dearly love to test your theory in a court of law and clear the muddy waters surrounding its legality? Therefore perhaps I can do you all a favour by exploring the avenues that might lead to such a prosecution being brought before the courts.

I’m sure you will all welcome that.

Regards

JD

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