Taxi Driver Online

The driver isn't hireing the limo is he Doh.

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Grandad,

There is NO operator, its self drive therefore NO license is needed.

You all seem to be missing the point that WE are working with VOSA etc ,along with the NLcA and the ELA and already convert these vehicles to a standard WAY BEYOND what is needed.

A lot of the Hummer H2,s have been converted , we are doing them as we speak and cannot do anymore till next year, they are the most expensive and hardest to do but they are definately being done.

Some dodgy ops will obviously slip through the net but the MAJORITY do maintain their vehicles properly.

As for the PSV license ITS A REQUIREMENT by the insurance companies for passenger safetyand one we totally support.

The limo industry is not perfect but then again neither is any transport industry BUT it does have a 100% safety record spanning 30 years in the UK.

Still dont see any answer to the question about why 8 seater limos should not be licensed.

Just because some greedy council licensing officer says he will bend the rules does not make something LEGAL, they are not bending rules but seriously breaking laws by licensing these vehicles and are only interested in the revenue. This whole licensing senario is what has stalled CORRECT legislation for limousines. As i said before a completely new licensing system is being drawn up which suits limousines correctly and is not some mish mash of bus,taxi and made up bullsh.t that is cheaper for the goverment to implement.

Im amazed that you guys advocate licensing these limos in any way possible ...............Absolutely ridiculous to license any vehicle without proper format and understanding of the vehicle concerned , limos are not taxis, or buses, they are limos and pay huge tax dividends therefore deserve correct and fitting legislation. Which will come but not until everyone is happy.


As for type approval..................we,re already working on vehicles that are type approved.

Well they should be licensed, and many are.

Which begs the question why more aren't. Maybe it's because the drivers wouldn't pass a CRB check.

If you are asking why some councils don't license them, then maybe it's because they don't think they are safe, or from 2009 will not meet EU 'type approval'.

Do you?

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IDFIMH

Name them.

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IDFIMH

Still dont see any answer to the question about why 8 seater limos should not be licensed.

Am I allowed to have a guess?.......................I think I will leave others to that one after all.

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Grandad,

I hope you succeed with VOSA, but getting anything through the house chock-a-block full of union sponsored MPs will be an interesting task.

VOSA might not know that, but the DfT do.

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IDFIMH

I think I may have one in my garage.

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Grandad,

Well if you or anyone else tells me I will e-mail VOSA and get the 'type approval' number.

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IDFIMH

It is not one of my limousines, I am just storing it.

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Grandad,

So just to clarify.

With this self drive lark;

1) The vehicle isn't PSV licensed.

2) The driver doesn't need to have a PSV license.

3) The insurer(s) insist that the driver has a PSV drivers license.

4) The owner of the vehicle rents the vehicle to the customer.

5) The customer then employs a driver.

Questions

1) Does the owner have to approve the driver?

2) Is there a written contract of employment between the customer and the driver?

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IDFIMH

Firstly Mr S (and thanks for the questions).

Any vehicle already in the UK and registered does not need to meet 2009 Type approval criteria only vehicles entering the UK from outside the EU after the deadline do.

As i said we are WORKING on vehicles to be TYPE APPROVED although reading my last post i can understand how you thought we already have them. We are looking at next Marchish before we complete a full type approved Chrysler 300. We have the suspension,bearings ,brakes etc already passed just some more work to do on other components.

The owner does not have to approve the driver, the insurance company does (or at the very least the driver must meet the insurance criteria).

There is a contract from the chauffeur hire company which the driver has and has to get the customer to sign before he or she can drive the vehicle.

As for the licensing issue no-one in the industry will argue the point that limos should be licensed ,ofcourse they should and its what we want but licensed correctly as limos NOT taxis.

For the goverment to say they should be licensed under PH when PH rules (national) state it is illegal to license a vehicle with side facing seats or a LHD vehicle is ridiculous.

So its ok to break laws providing you pay enough money ?????

Sorry not acceptable , if its illegal then its illegal and just because some faceless figure in goverment cant be ars.d to do anything about it is totally scandalous!!!!!!


You see no-one in our industry is saying we wont license what we are saying is we wont license under illegal ,ill thought out friday afternoon ideas but we will license under a properly considered legislation for an industry which the tax man and GOVERMENT have no problem in collecting a very sizeable revenue from.

No but he's being paid to drive it, doh or maybe he just does it out of the goodness of his heart

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http://wingsoverscotland.com/ http://www.newsnetscotland.com/

The only people you are likely to convince that your operation is "self drive hire" are your associates in the minibus trade. No one else, including the High court, would ever be as gullible as to believe you are carrying on the activity of self drive hire.

For someone who advertises self drive hire it is remarkable the lengths you have gone to in order to try and exclude as many members of the public as possible from driving your vehicles.

And yet, even though you have placed as many obstacles in the way of the general public from driving your vehicles, you still wish and need to draw all your custom from those members of the public who can't drive your vehicles. Now isn't that remarkable?

Your business model doesn't remotely sound like self drive hire to me and I am absolutely sure that it wont sound like self drive hire to the court of appeal?

In your world, the only people who can drive your vehicles are those who hold a PCV license but when you consider you wouldn't stand an earthly chance of making a living from these people then it just highlights what a sham of an operation you are running?

The sad part about all this apart from the unlicensed nature of the exercise, is that it appears a particular Insurance company might have also unwittingly joined in the sham? I don't know which insurance company that might be but I suspect it won't be long before we find out?

Did you conduct a market research feasibility study into the likelihood of independent PCV drivers wanting to hire your vehicles? Shall we guess at 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 percent of PCV drivers in the UK or shall we guess at a more realistic figure of Zero?

The bottom line of your business plan is that you need to draw much of your custom from everyday working people who wish to party, in one way or another. The main objective of your business plan as you have ably demonstrated is to exclude or deter anyone from driving your vehicles who is not directly or indirectly employed by you. I suspect even if an independent PCV driver who you have never seen before approached you and wanted to hire one of your limos you would find some way to deter them.

Your vehicles are not PSV licensed minibuses, therefore they don't carry hire or reward insurance. In fact, your insurance policy will have a clause excluding "hire or reward" and yet any business that carries passengers for payment regardless of how that payment came about is carrying on the business of hire or reward. Now you do know that, because I've already explained it to you. Yet you are totally detached from the illegality of what you are doing?

I have said it previously that you haven't got a clue of what constitutes hire or reward and my observations have been well founded.

You said you liaised with the DfT and VOSA to find a way to work under current legislation? I personally do not believe that anyone from the DfT would put their seal on an unlawful enterprise such as this.

Perhaps you would be kind enough to supply us with the names of the persons from these two organisations who you liaised with in order that we can verify your claim?

If your vehicles had 8 passenger seats you would be getting your collar felt for operating private hire vehicles without an operators license and your drivers would be had over for driving without "hire or reward" insurance and also driving without a private hire license. That’s how close you sail to the wind.

However I do believe that VOSA and the police are not that absorbent that they won't eventually realise that what you are doing is unlawful? With a little luck this convenience of yours will be tried and tested in the court of appeal sooner rather than later.

You may wish to know that Mr Oasis of Bradford is still in operation for 16 passengers, so he is obviously following your lead. And are you aware that a great many of your colleagues in the limo trade are operating the "wedding scam" they do this by booking 16 passengers in on wedding contracts instead of the normal hire contract? I suppose that’s another convenient way of circumventing the licensing requirement?

After all that’s been said I still have an open mind about limos and I am someone who thinks legislation is desperately needed in order that the limo industry can be accommodated. However, the more I delve into the unlawful licensing activities perpetuated by some, if not many in your industry, the more I dislike it.

Regards

JD

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Copyright notice © The contents of this post are copyright of JD and are not to be reproduced outside of TDO without written permission.

Interesting that you have moved on from a court of law to the court of appeal!!! There are some company's that will operate and continue to operate with no regard for any kind of legislation like the one you mention. They are making so much money that any fines imposed are treated as an occupational hazard. The answer to this would be to impound their vehicles and crush them but I suppose that this can't be done. The ones that say that everything is something to do with a wedding will be caught and dealt with through the courts. I don't think any of the contributors on here from the limo world would condone that particular activity.

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Grandad,

Please look at any of these self drive hire companies web sites NOT ONE mentions self drive hire. but if that's your business you would have it there big & bold. I would have thought.