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 Post subject: Old Bill and Runners
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:34 am 
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Location: Chichester
I am certain this has come up before!

After a hefty runner tonight, I have just come off the phone from Sussex Police - who insist (after a long argument) that this is a civil matter, and therefore they will do nothing.

I am certain that this is covered by a Theft Act or something now – am I correct, and can some kind soul point me at the relevant information, so I can write to them and put them right please.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:57 am 
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I can't quote the necessary legislation I'm afraid. But, I do know that making off without your agreement and with no intention of paying is a criminal offence.

Saying anything to you that may indicate a willingness to pay something at sometime becomes a civil matter.

So, if your guy/gal just leapt out and disappeared, I believe the police are in error.

I had one at 3.00 (or was that 4.00??) this morning. First thing he said was come back at 10.00 for your money. He indicated a willingness to pay, just not at that moment, therefore, no offence. As it happens, yes, I did get my money...All £8 of it!!

Sorry to hear of your predicament. Someone should be able to give you chapter and verse. I hope you get it resolved satifactorily.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 11:46 am 
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Yesterday afternoon a chap askid me to take him to Hull.

I asked for cash up front.

He did not have it, "my dad will pay when we get there" (yeah, right)

I did not go.

Simple solution to an eternal problem.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:41 pm 
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Thanks Jimbo – after getting bilked for a large sum of money, I really needed confirmation that I was a tw*t, cheers.

It was at the end of a long shift, 4:00 am, a phoned in job, supposedly from an address (proven afterwards to be false) and I am by nature a trusting soul, and was simply suckered – that does not make a runner acceptable, and usually I do indeed usually ask for cash up front if flagged or from the rank.

However, I could have got the b*gger prosecuted, as I knew where he was, and I had a good idea of his identity.

To ring the old bill and get the “civil affair” run-around was not what I wanted or needed after all that crap.

The police, it seems, need to be educated on this issue, I am not the first, and I am certainly not going to be the last.

I sincerely trust that the same does not happen to you.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:11 pm 
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http://taxi-driver.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=59391
http://taxi-driver.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6237
http://taxi-driver.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4788

The 1978 Theft Act section 3(2) defines the offence of making off without payment and anyone who absconds without paying will normally be charged under this provision. The 2006 Fraud act repealed all of the old legislation contained in the 1968 theft act appertaining to obtaining services dishonestly but it didn’t repeal section 3.2 of the 1978 Theft act. I suppose it was for the fact that “making off” and “obtaining services dishonestly” are two completely different set of circumstances.

Putting ones hand out to hail a cab is not a dishonest act the dishonest act comes by way of making off or attempting to make off without paying. Under the circumstances perhaps the only scenario where a passenger might be found guilty of obtaining the “service dishonestly” is where there is evidence that the person was never going to pay? The case highlighted in the link above gives a definitive meaning to the distinction of actually making off as against a refusal to pay the fare?

The offence of making off under section 3.2 is a criminal and arrestable offence, therefore the police were wrong to do nothing. Perhaps you should print this post out and send it to your local police station and inform them that they were wrong to draw the conclusion that the offence is a Civil Matter.

_________________________________

Theft Act 1978 (1978 c 31)

section 3 Making off without payment


(1) Subject to subsection (3) below, a person who, knowing that payment on the spot for any goods supplied or service done is required or expected from him, dishonestly makes off without having paid as required or expected and with intent to avoid payment of the amount due shall be guilty of an offence.

(2) For purposes of this section “payment on the spot” includes payment at the time of collecting goods on which work has been done or in respect of which service has been provided.

(3) Subsection (1) above shall not apply where the supply of the goods or the doing of the service is contrary to law, or where the service done is such that payment is not legally enforceable.

section (4). Repealed

Amendment

Sub-s (4): repealed by the Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005, ss 111, 174(2), Sch 7, Pt 1, para 20, Sch 17, Pt 2.


Date in force: 1 January 2006: see SI 2005/3495, art 2(1)(m), (t), (u)(xx).
__________________________

4 Punishments

(1) Offences under this Act shall be punishable either on conviction on indictment or on summary conviction.

(2) A person convicted on indictment shall be liable—

(a) . . .

(b) for an offence under section 3 of this Act, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years.

(3) A person convicted summarily of any offence under this Act shall be liable—

(a) to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months; or

(b) to a fine not exceeding the prescribed sum for the purposes of [section 32 of the Magistrates' Courts Act 1980] (punishment on summary conviction of offences triable either way: £1,000 or other sum substituted by order under that Act), or to both.
_______________________________________

Fraud act section 11 Obtaining services dishonestly

(1) A person is guilty of an offence under this section if he obtains services for himself or another—

(a) by a dishonest act, and

(b) in breach of subsection (2).

(2) A person obtains services in breach of this subsection if—

(a) they are made available on the basis that payment has been, is being or will be made for or in respect of them,

(b) he obtains them without any payment having been made for or in respect of them or without payment having been made in full, and

(c) when he obtains them, he knows—

(i) that they are being made available on the basis described in paragraph (a), or

(ii) that they might be, but intends that payment will not be made, or will not be made in full.

(3) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable—

(a) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum (or to both);

(b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 5 years or to a fine (or to both).

(4) Subsection (3)(a) applies in relation to Northern Ireland as if the reference to 12 months were a reference to 6 months.

Fraud and obtaining services dishonestly.

The Fraud Act 2006 makes provision for, and in connection with, criminal liability for fraud and obtaining services dishonestly. For transition provisions and savings see s 14(2), Sch 2.

1. General

A person is guilty of fraud if he is in breach of any of the following provisions which provide for different ways of committing the offence. The provisions relate to (1) fraud by false representation; (2) fraud by failing to disclose information; and (3) fraud by abuse of position. A person who is guilty of fraud is liable (a) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum (or to both); (b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding ten years or to a fine (or to both).

2. Fraud by false representation

A person is in breach of this provision if he (1) dishonestly makes a false representation, and (2) intends, by making the representation (a) to make a gain for himself or another, or (b) to cause loss4 to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.

1 Ie the Fraud Act 2006 s 2.

2 A representation is false if (1) it is untrue or misleading, and (2) the person making it knows that it is, or might be, untrue or misleading: s 2(2). 'Representation' means any representation as to fact or law, including a representation as to the state of mind of (a) the person making the representation, or (b) any other person: s 2(3). A representation may be express or implied: s 2(4). For the purposes of s 2 a representation may be regarded as made if it (or anything implying it) is submitted in any form to any system or device designed to receive, convey or respond to communications (with or without human intervention): s 2(5).

3 'Gain' includes a gain by keeping what one has, as well as a gain by getting what one does not have: ibid s 5(3). See further note 5 infra.

4 'Loss' includes a loss by not getting what one might get, as well as a loss by parting with what one has: ibid s 5(4). See further note 5 infra.

5 'Gain' and 'loss' (1) extend only to gain or loss in money or other property; (2) include any such gain or loss whether temporary or permanent; and 'property' means any property whether real or personal (including things in action and other intangible property): s 5(2).

3. Fraud by failing to disclose information

A person is in breach of this provision if he (1) dishonestly fails to disclose to another person information which he is under a legal duty to disclose, and (2) intends, by failing to disclose the information (a) to make a gain for himself or another, or (b) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.

4. Fraud by abuse of position

A person is in breach of this provision if he (1) occupies a position in which he is expected to safeguard, or not to act against, the financial interests of another person, (2) dishonestly abuses that position, and (3) intends, by means of the abuse of that position (a) to make a gain for himself or another, or (b) to cause loss to another or to expose another to a risk of loss.

4 2006 Act s 4(1). A person may be regarded as having abused his position even though his conduct consisted of an omission rather than an act: s 4(2).

5. Possession etc of articles for use in frauds

A person is guilty of an offence if he has in his possession or under his control any article for use in the course of or in connection with any fraud. A person guilty of an offence under this provision is liable (1) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum (or to both); (2) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years or to a fine (or to both).

8. Obtaining services dishonestly

A person is guilty of an offence under the following provisions if he obtains services for himself or another (1) by a dishonest act, and (2) in breach of the provision below. A person obtains services in breach of this provision if (a) they are made available on the basis that payment has been, is being or will be made for or in respect of them, (b) he obtains them without any payment having been made for or in respect of them or without payment having been made in full, and (c) when he obtains them, he knows (i) that they are being made available on the basis described in head (a) above, or (ii) that they might be, but intends that payment will not be made, or will not be made in full. A person guilty of an offence under these provisions is liable (a) on summary conviction, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or to a fine not exceeding the statutory maximum (or to both); (b) on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years or to a fine (or to both).

Making off without payment.

A person who, knowing that payment on the spot for any goods supplied or services done is required or expected from him, dishonestly makes off without having paid as required or expected and with intent to avoid payment of the amount due is guilty of an offence and liable on conviction on indictment to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years, or on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding six months or to a fine not exceeding the prescribed sum or to both.

1 For these purposes, 'payment on the spot' includes payment at the time of collecting goods on which work has been done or in respect of which service has been provided: Theft Act 1978 s 3(2).

2 section 3(1) does not apply, however, where the supply of the goods or the doing of the service is contrary to law, or where the service done is such that payment is not legally enforceable: s 3(3). See Troughton v Metropolitan Police [1987] Crim LR 138, DC (taxi driver broke away from route in breach of contract; defendant not liable for payment thereafter).

3 The words 'dishonestly makes off' should be applied in their natural meaning. 'Making off' involves a departure from the spot where payment is required; but if the defendant is stopped before passing that spot, he may be guilty of an attempt to commit the offence: R v McDavitt [1981] Crim LR 843, Crown Ct; R v Brooks (1983) 76 Cr App Rep 66, CA.

4 Ie required or expected there and then: R v Aziz [1993] Crim LR 708, CA. A person does not make off without having paid as required or expected if the creditor (or his agent) has agreed that payment be postponed, even if that agreement has been procured by dishonest deception: R v Vincent [2001] EWCA Crim 295, [2001] 1 WLR 1172, [2001] 2 Cr App Rep 150.

5 'Intent to avoid payment' means an intent to avoid payment permanently: R v Allen [1985] AC 1029, 81 Cr App Rep 200, HL; and see R v Hammond [1982] Crim LR 611, Crown Ct.

6 Theft Act 1978 s 3(1).

7 As from a day to be appointed this maximum term of imprisonment is increased to a maximum term of 12 months (see the Criminal Justice Act 2003 ss 281(7)

Part 3 Police Powers etc, Powers of arrest

Section 110 Powers of arrest


(1) For section 24 of PACE (arrest without warrant for arrestable offences) substitute—

24 Arrest without warrant: constables

(1) A constable may arrest without a warrant—

(a) anyone who is about to commit an offence;

(b) anyone who is in the act of committing an offence;

(c) anyone whom he has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be about to commit an offence;

(d) anyone whom he has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be committing an offence.

(2) If a constable has reasonable grounds for suspecting that an offence has been committed, he may arrest without a warrant anyone whom he has reasonable grounds to suspect of being guilty of it.

(3) If an offence has been committed, a constable may arrest without a warrant—

(a) anyone who is guilty of the offence;

(b) anyone whom he has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be guilty of it.

(4) But the power of summary arrest conferred by subsection (1), (2) or (3) is exercisable only if the constable has reasonable grounds for believing that for any of the reasons mentioned in subsection (5) it is necessary to arrest the person in question.

(5) The reasons are—

(a) to enable the name of the person in question to be ascertained (in the case where the constable does not know, and cannot readily ascertain, the person's name, or has reasonable grounds for doubting whether a name given by the person as his name is his real name);

(b) correspondingly as regards the person's address;

(c) to prevent the person in question—
(i) causing physical injury to himself or any other person;
(ii) suffering physical injury;
(iii) causing loss of or damage to property;
(iv) committing an offence against public decency (subject to subsection (6)); or
(v) causing an unlawful obstruction of the highway;
(d) to protect a child or other vulnerable person from the person in question;
(e) to allow the prompt and effective investigation of the offence or of the conduct of the person in question;
(f) to prevent any prosecution for the offence from being hindered by the disappearance of the person in question.
(6) Subsection (5)(c)(iv) applies only where members of the public going about their normal business cannot reasonably be expected to avoid the person in question.

24A Arrest without warrant: other persons

(1) A person other than a constable may arrest without a warrant—
(a) anyone who is in the act of committing an indictable offence;
(b) anyone whom he has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be committing an indictable offence.

(2) Where an indictable offence has been committed, a person other than a constable may arrest without a warrant—
(a) anyone who is guilty of the offence;
(b) anyone whom he has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be guilty of it.

(3) But the power of summary arrest conferred by subsection (1) or (2) is exercisable only if—
(a) the person making the arrest has reasonable grounds for believing that for any of the reasons mentioned in subsection (4) it is necessary to arrest the person in question; and
(b) it appears to the person making the arrest that it is not reasonably practicable for a constable to make it instead.

(4) The reasons are to prevent the person in question—
(a) causing physical injury to himself or any other person;
(b) suffering physical injury;
(c) causing loss of or damage to property; or
(d) making off before a constable can assume responsibility for him.”

(2) Section 25 of PACE (general arrest conditions) shall cease to have effect.

(3) In section 66 of PACE (codes of practice), in subsection (1)(a)—
(a) omit “or” at the end of sub-paragraph (i),
(b) at the end of sub-paragraph (ii) insert
“or
(iii) to arrest a person;”
(4) The sections 24 and 24A of PACE substituted by subsection (1) are to have effect in relation to any offence whenever committed.

Appointment: 1 January 2006: see SI 2005/3495, art 2(1)(m).

Extent

This section does not extend to Scotland: see s 179(2), (3).
__________________________________

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Copyright notice © The contents of this post are copyright of JD and are not to be reproduced outside of TDO without written permission.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 7:32 pm 
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Location: Lincoln
Doc G wrote:
Thanks Jimbo – after getting bilked for a large sum of money, I really needed confirmation that I was a tw*t, cheers.

It was at the end of a long shift, 4:00 am, a phoned in job, supposedly from an address (proven afterwards to be false) and I am by nature a trusting soul, and was simply suckered – that does not make a runner acceptable, and usually I do indeed usually ask for cash up front if flagged or from the rank.

However, I could have got the b*gger prosecuted, as I knew where he was, and I had a good idea of his identity.

To ring the old bill and get the “civil affair” run-around was not what I wanted or needed after all that crap.

The police, it seems, need to be educated on this issue, I am not the first, and I am certainly not going to be the last.

I sincerely trust that the same does not happen to you.


Oops, I suppose I did come over all smug there, sorry about that Doc, it was unintentional. Those sort of things happen when least expected. I know of one driver who was paid upfront, only to be mugged at the destination for the fare and his takings. Write to the Chief Constable and your MP, to shake them up a bit?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 7:59 pm 
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Posts: 202
Location: Chichester
Thanks very much for the legal JD, and apology accepted Jimbo – no hard feelings mate!

I am just compiling a letter to the Chief Constable, but it has occurred to me (probably not uniquely) that it may be an idea for all bilking, and other problems, to be reported to the police as a matter of course, and a crime number generated. Many (most?) remain unreported at present.

The police hate having un-cleared crimes on their books, it makes them look bad and shows that they are not doing a good job.

Perhaps this is a way to highlight our real vulnerability out there, demonstrate the extent of the problems we all face every day, and maybe wake the powers that be up?


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:16 pm 
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Doc G wrote:
Thanks very much for the legal JD, and apology accepted Jimbo – no hard feelings mate!

I am just compiling a letter to the Chief Constable, but it has occurred to me (probably not uniquely) that it may be an idea for all bilking, and other problems, to be reported to the police as a matter of course, and a crime number generated. Many (most?) remain unreported at present.

The police hate having un-cleared crimes on their books, it makes them look bad and shows that they are not doing a good job.

Perhaps this is a way to highlight our real vulnerability out there, demonstrate the extent of the problems we all face every day, and maybe wake the powers that be up?


You are right of course, but in my experience, unless the fare is large the driver will usually write it off as bad luck especially if its busy.

The reasons of this are presumably because many police forces dont generally give a flying f*ck about cab drivers unless they need them.

CC

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 Post subject: Re: Old Bill and Runners
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:26 pm 
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Location: 1066 Country
Doc G wrote:
I am certain this has come up before!

After a hefty runner tonight, I have just come off the phone from Sussex Police - who insist (after a long argument) that this is a civil matter, and therefore they will do nothing.

I am certain that this is covered by a Theft Act or something now – am I correct, and can some kind soul point me at the relevant information, so I can write to them and put them right please.

Please send me a PM, of as much of the incident as you can remember, and I will send the local superintendent an e-mail.

Times/folks spoken to/your details etc. :wink:

I'm afraid some in the police force need a bit more educating. :sad:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:27 pm 
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Doc G wrote:
However, I could have got the b*gger prosecuted, as I knew where he was, and I had a good idea of his identity.

You still can, the statue of limitations still gives you a few more years to deal with this. :wink:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:29 pm 
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Doc G wrote:
I am just compiling a letter to the Chief Constable,

Good idea, please forget my previous but one post.

Also send a copy to your local police station. :wink:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 7:31 am 
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Information For TDO subscribers, anyone who won't pay the fare, you are entitled to keep them in the cab until such time the police arrive and dont forget to keep the meter running.

Regards

JD

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