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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 8:58 pm 
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Flagging cabs in a wheelchair

By Geoff Adams-Spink
Age & disability correspondent, BBC News


Think you've got problems finding a cab? Try it in a wheelchair.

Almost every time Baroness Nicky Chapman of Leeds comes to London to sit in the House of Lords, she is refused a ride in a black cab because she uses a wheelchair.

Last summer, after being refused by nine successive drivers - the last of whom she says became abusive - she complained to taxi watchdog the Public Carriage Office and found that the relevant disabled access laws have yet to be implemented by the Department for Transport. Now the crossbencher plans a private member's bill to give wheelchair users greater access to licensed taxis. FIND OUT MORE...
On BBC Radio 4's You and Yours on Monday, 14 April at 1200 BST

With accessibility a hot issue in transport - it was this that finally did for London's iconic Routemaster buses - I spend an afternoon trying to hail cabs with wheelchair user Ruth Bashall, a disability rights campaigner and one-time trainer of London taxi drivers.

We meet at Charing Cross Station. As Ms Bashall uses a large electric wheelchair, we're on the look-out for one of the newer, wider TX cabs. Luckily, there's one right at the front of the station's taxi rank.

The driver cannot be more helpful, moving his car to a better loading position, freeing up a jammed ramp and fitting an extension to give a shallower gradient for Ruth's wheelchair.

And he's typically robust when asked why some fellow drivers seem reluctant to pick up passengers in wheelchairs.

"Taxi drivers are all self-employed - they get no grants whatsoever from the government or from the local authority [to modify their cabs]. They expect us to act like a social service, and we're not - we're just scraping a living in very stressful situations."
Ruth Bashall on Oxford St

He drops us on bustling Oxford Street, where Ruth Bashall and I try to hail a second cab.

Two drivers with their hire light on sail past, and another suggests that we try a rank on another street. But just around the corner, Ms Bashall sticks her hand up and a driver named William stops.

Although not part of a radio circuit, William says he picks up wheelchair passengers about once a week. He thinks other cabbies have no excuse. "It takes a little bit longer than normal - if it's just one a week you can put yourself out," he says.

Ms Bashall thinks there is what she calls "an irreductable core" of drivers who simply refuse to change.

In London, drivers who are part of a radio circuit - a telephone booking service for cabs - are far more likely to encounter disabled passengers than those who are hailed on the street.

By law

Computer Cab plc books taxis for disabled people who are part of the subsidised Taxicard scheme. The company provides specific training for drivers so that they know how to operate accessibility equipment that they are required by law to carry, says head of operations, Malcolm Paice.
New cabs have built-in ramps

"The way that we sell the training to the drivers is to say, 'you've gone out and invested in one of the most accessible vehicles in London - let us show you how to make the most of that'."

Drivers unwilling to take wheelchair users or with broken equipment get no further work from Computer Cab until the situation is rectified, says Mr Paice.

But there is a more basic, perhaps less palatable reason why drivers won't stop for disabled people, says Bob Oddy, general secretary of the Licensed Taxi Drivers Association.

"When you're confronted with particularly a severely disabled person, when you're not expecting it and you're not used to it, it can be awkward and embarrassing. I'm not saying they should do so, but that's the reality."

Mr Oddy says that drivers who are not part of a radio circuit seldom come across wheelchair users - perhaps once in two years on average.

Easy access

The Public Carriage Office says it is in discussion with the Department for Transport about bringing in the regulations contained in the 1995 Disability Discrimination Act.

People are sat around tables in committees trying to design the perfect taxi to cover every impairment, and you can't

Baroness Chapman

Julian Fiorentini, the mobility programme manager, says the PCO only realised that these had yet to be enacted when it tried to help Baroness Chapman prosecute the drivers who refused to take her fare.

But Mr Fiorentini says that the situation is complicated and that amendments to the original legislation have to be made before the rules can be brought into force.

Whether it is measures to reduce discrimination or design standards for disabled access to taxis, campaigners think that the government is sitting on its hands.

"There are some 380 local authorities and virtually none of them have identical policies," says Andrew Overton, whose family has been manufacturing and selling taxis since 1906.

"Local authorities are looking for guidance from government about what they require in a way of standards for an accessible taxi."

He says that the industry was given draft regulations to consider 10 years ago but that nothing has happened since.

But junior transport minister, Rosie Winterton, says the original focus on the needs of wheelchair users is too narrow. Since the government said in 2003 that it would look at making all taxis wheelchair accessible, the Department for Transport has received representations from other groups saying their needs have not been taken into account.

"There are different requirements for people with different disabilities, so simply making every taxi wheelchair accessible is not the answer," says Ms Winterton.

But Baroness Chapman thinks that the time for talking is long past.

"Unless you actually experience the discrimination, it's easy to get waylaid. People are sat around tables in committees trying to design the perfect taxi to cover every impairment, and you can't - people with the same impairments have different needs."

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www.gmbpdb.org.uk


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 12:03 pm 
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This story was posted, and discussed about 4 months ago. It was another selective set up by the BBC.

Trust the GMB to be behind the times. :roll:


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:39 pm 
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I do not remember if I am going over old ground, but probably like others on here I have spoken to many other drivers regarding this problem.

The main bone of contention seems to be the time issue loading and unloading of wheelchair passengers, which equals loss of time and most importantly money. On the E7s for example it would take at least 10 mins or more to 1) get your ramps out unfold etc and position 2) actually wheel and position the wheelchair and then strap in in safely 3) ramps folded back up and repositioned back into the car. Then as you are all aware you go through the same at the other end, equals another 10 mins.

Now some will say that a total of 20 mins is an exaggeration, so let us call it 15 mins and let us say you do 6 of these jobs per day. We are now talking of a driver losing 1 1/2 hours per day for no extra money whilst some one in a saloon car who has purchased his/her vehicle for a much smaller amount is making more money. This is not a pop at the guys/girls that drive saloons the best of luck to them but nevertheless a statement of fact.

These unfortunate people in W/Chs are in a terrible situation, but until the appropriate authorities realise we are not social services it will go on - because charity begins at home.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 3:52 pm 
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cabby john wrote:
I do not remember if I am going over old ground, but probably like others on here I have spoken to many other drivers regarding this problem.

The main bone of contention seems to be the time issue loading and unloading of wheelchair passengers, which equals loss of time and most importantly money. On the E7s for example it would take at least 10 mins or more to 1) get your ramps out unfold etc and position 2) actually wheel and position the wheelchair and then strap in in safely 3) ramps folded back up and repositioned back into the car. Then as you are all aware you go through the same at the other end, equals another 10 mins.

Now some will say that a total of 20 mins is an exaggeration, so let us call it 15 mins and let us say you do 6 of these jobs per day. We are now talking of a driver losing 1 1/2 hours per day for no extra money whilst some one in a saloon car who has purchased his/her vehicle for a much smaller amount is making more money. This is not a pop at the guys/girls that drive saloons the best of luck to them but nevertheless a statement of fact.

These unfortunate people in W/Chs are in a terrible situation, but until the appropriate authorities realise we are not social services it will go on - because charity begins at home.


The E7 has a pull out ramp on the side, and it should only take a few mins to fasten the wheelchair in position, and its also easier to get into position as well, unlike any LTI cab that you can have extreme difficulty in doing that is why some drivers ignore the safety issue and just wheel the chairs in side on.
Would you agree that if the turning circle was abolished manufactures even LTI could design a much better cab


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:01 pm 
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My TX2 has a flip out ramp. What's the hardship with that?


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:12 pm 
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GBC wrote:
My TX2 has a flip out ramp. What's the hardship with that?

if it has one on the off side as well they are stabiliser's :lol: :lol:

I know that GBC but it is still hard to get a chair in you have to lift the back seats then try to get the chair turned into the correct position, (thats if you can) then fasten it down.
In the E7 or its equivalents, you just wheel it in turn it, and fasten down and off you go


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:15 pm 
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GBC wrote:
My TX2 has a flip out ramp. What's the hardship with that?


The E7s or the one that I have do not have the flip outs, TBH the one that I have is a pain in the ar$e as they are mobile and packed away in the back.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 4:18 pm 
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cabby john wrote:
GBC wrote:
My TX2 has a flip out ramp. What's the hardship with that?


The E7s or the one that I have do not have the flip outs, TBH the one that I have is a pain in the ar$e as they are mobile and packed away in the back.


They are standard one the newer ones, you can still get one fitted though


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:12 pm 
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cabby john wrote:
I do not remember if I am going over old ground, but probably like others on here I have spoken to many other drivers regarding this problem.

The main bone of contention seems to be the time issue loading and unloading of wheelchair passengers, which equals loss of time and most importantly money. On the E7s for example it would take at least 10 mins or more to 1) get your ramps out unfold etc and position 2) actually wheel and position the wheelchair and then strap in in safely 3) ramps folded back up and repositioned back into the car. Then as you are all aware you go through the same at the other end, equals another 10 mins.

Now some will say that a total of 20 mins is an exaggeration, so let us call it 15 mins and let us say you do 6 of these jobs per day. We are now talking of a driver losing 1 1/2 hours per day for no extra money whilst some one in a saloon car who has purchased his/her vehicle for a much smaller amount is making more money. This is not a pop at the guys/girls that drive saloons the best of luck to them but nevertheless a statement of fact.

These unfortunate people in W/Chs are in a terrible situation, but until the appropriate authorities realise we are not social services it will go on - because charity begins at home.


Most cabbies on here seem to be sitting around on the rank for hours on end so they are not earning anyway. I think six times a day is a bit extreme. I have never seen anyone in a wheelchair trying to flag down a cab in my area. Most times it would be pre-booked anyway.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 5:18 pm 
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grandad wrote:
cabby john wrote:
I do not remember if I am going over old ground, but probably like others on here I have spoken to many other drivers regarding this problem.

The main bone of contention seems to be the time issue loading and unloading of wheelchair passengers, which equals loss of time and most importantly money. On the E7s for example it would take at least 10 mins or more to 1) get your ramps out unfold etc and position 2) actually wheel and position the wheelchair and then strap in in safely 3) ramps folded back up and repositioned back into the car. Then as you are all aware you go through the same at the other end, equals another 10 mins.

Now some will say that a total of 20 mins is an exaggeration, so let us call it 15 mins and let us say you do 6 of these jobs per day. We are now talking of a driver losing 1 1/2 hours per day for no extra money whilst some one in a saloon car who has purchased his/her vehicle for a much smaller amount is making more money. This is not a pop at the guys/girls that drive saloons the best of luck to them but nevertheless a statement of fact.

These unfortunate people in W/Chs are in a terrible situation, but until the appropriate authorities realise we are not social services it will go on - because charity begins at home.


Most cabbies on here seem to be sitting around on the rank for hours on end so they are not earning anyway. I think six times a day is a bit extreme. I have never seen anyone in a wheelchair trying to flag down a cab in my area. Most times it would be pre-booked anyway.


I agree that it would be extreme unless of course you were working from a Hospital rank. The point was more about time and money lost , and that I feel is more the reason than anything.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 6:02 pm 
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cabby john wrote:
We are now talking of a driver losing 1 1/2 hours per day for no extra money whilst some one in a saloon car who has purchased his/her vehicle for a much smaller amount is making more money.

Why?

Put the meter on when you make contact, and before you even touch the ramps.

If your council tells you any different, then tell them they are wrong.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 7:48 pm 
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I am the ONLY wheelchair equipped vehicle in my Town and have only ever been flagged ONCE in 9 years for a wheelchair job and have picked up off the rank about 4 times someone with a wheelchair in 9 years i do do about a dozen wheelchair jobs a month though all pre booked

Nobody else bothers with a wheelchair access vehicle because our council has opted NOT to adopt the taxi sections of the DDA so none wheelchair access vehicles are used although one of our peterborough friends does has a WAV but they always deny having a wheelchair friendly vehicle if you want a job covering !

As i've said before there is a distinct disadvantage to operating a WAV but as i have little competition for mine i get a lot of work for it from mums with prams/pushchairs and some groups of oaps who find it easier to get into/out of than an MPV

I think the crux of the problem is that disabled groups do not always fully appreciate the amount of extra time and trouble a driver has to go through on their behalf and the level of disadvantage that incurs in terms of earnings etc.

I think it is high time that the government introduced some sort of incentive scheme to which drivers could sign up which would provide some help such as tax allowances or cheaper road tax and then limit this to say 10% of the national hackney fleet that would provide an adequate number of vehicles relative to the amount of trade from wheelchair users etc. and make it more worthwhile drivers doing that work


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:26 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
cabby john wrote:
We are now talking of a driver losing 1 1/2 hours per day for no extra money whilst some one in a saloon car who has purchased his/her vehicle for a much smaller amount is making more money.

Why?

Put the meter on when you make contact, and before you even touch the ramps.

If your council tells you any different, then tell them they are wrong.


Exactly, the way I understand it you SHOULD put the meter on before loading the wheelchair to satisfy insurance requirements.

Having said that, sometimes even once you get them in you can't position them to strap them in so your insurance for them is invalid anyway.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:40 am 
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Darren63 wrote:
Having said that, sometimes even once you get them in you can't position them to strap them in so your insurance for them is invalid anyway.

Spoke to someone the other day from the disabled federation and she reckons less than 50% of wheelchair are loaded and secured properly. :shock:

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:47 am 
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Sussex wrote:
Spoke to someone the other day from the disabled federation and she reckons less than 50% of wheelchair are loaded and secured properly. :shock:


More like 5% I would say

grandad wrote:
Most cabbies on here seem to be sitting around on the rank for hours on end so they are not earning anyway.


That’s irrelevant.

Of course waiting around on ranks is part of the job, but when my cab is hired I expect payment so the meter goes on

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