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 Post subject: Re: Is this right?
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 5:40 pm 
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meltingsmoke wrote:
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Also what provisions allow a council to license an operator not based in their own licensing district?

That's a question I would pose, if asked, to the Bolsover LOs.


Depends on the wording.

Will give, ( not may ) if fit and proper, to have a opt licence,

Strange how it’s so different across the UK.
You got to admit its so mess up now


as far as i remember a PH ops licence has to relate to and satisfy any possible planning regs for the site of the base, as cars are supposed to "stand to" there and also not cause noise or nuisance, ergo a LA cannot grant a PH ops licence for any operation outside thier jurisdiction...

so for me to be a PH operator in my neighbouring LA i would have to rent/buy a property suitable for the use

however my home phone code covers my home area and the next, and even the one beyond......lol


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 Post subject: Re: Is this right?
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 7:13 pm 
Brummie Cabbie wrote:
grandad wrote:
Let me clear this one up. The company have an operators license in both Mansfield and Bolsover. The company has one vehicle and one driver licensed in Mansfield. The rest are from Bolsover. The calls to the Mansfield office are being covered by the Bolsover cars.

They can only be LEGALLY covered by the Bolsover PH cars IF the booking is passed onto the Bolsover Operator & then the Bolsover Operator covers the booking with a Bolsover PH car.

If the Mansfield operator is passing bookings obtained by them directly to the Bolsover PHVs then that's illegal.

It's obvious what the Mansfield Operator is doing, but he is NOT contravening the legislation.

Very difficult to license PHVs in Mansfield, so there's a dearth of Mansfield PHVs. In Bolsover you can license a 'Chitty-Chitty-Bang-Bang!!

So the Mansfield PH Operator licenses one PHV in Mansfield, thereby 'fulfilling' his Mansfield PH Operator Licence conditions. Then he obtians a Bolsover PH Operator Licence, puts as may Bolsover PHVs on as he likes because they are plentiful, & then passes work coming into the Mansfield Operator Licensed Office onto the Bolsover Operator Licensed Office for that second office to cover with Bolsover cars.

Nothing illegal about that!

But now lets have a look at WHY he is doing that!!

Clearly there are draconian licensing measures in Mansfield, whereas in Bolsover the licensing conditions are less onerous & licensed cars / taxis can 'DO BUSINESS'. The original Mansfield operator licensed office (I'm guessing) probably could not cover anywhere near the amount of work that was coming in & were unable to expand because they could not get Mansfield licensed PHVs in anywhere near the numbers that were needed due to the draconian licensing measures adopted by Mansfield LA which in turn caused a shortage of Mansfield PHVs.

So what's the Mansfield operator supposed to do; lay down & die?

No he /she is a business man / woman, they want to expand - make money - more money.

So he / she / they have looked at the law found a 'loop-hole' if that's what you can call it & are now expanding, making money, making more money, but most importantly of all SERVICING THE PUBLIC!!

And in all this the big looser is Mansfield LA, on two counts. Firstly, the obvious financial loss to the LA in licensing fees & secondly because they can't enforce another LAs licensing conditions.

But you can't blame the original Mansfield operator for expanding his business & I would guess that he would prefer to have an abundance of Mansfield PHVs on his Mansfield fleet instead of the system he is being 'forced' to adopt to have a viable business that serves the passenger paying public.

And this is just another reason why we should be striving towards national & not regional licensing.


The reason and the only reason this is happening is, over in Bolsover they will licence anything with a engine irrelevant of condition and age.

In Mansfield they have an age policy and the tests are much more intense than they are in Bolsover. In Mansfield they will fail you if there's a small hole in the carpet in the rear footwell, strict is not the word but it's good because the cars are kept in good order.

It's got nothing to do with the space saver wheel issue it's the firms trying to get one over on the Council trying to prove a point.

On a weekend night the Licensing officer is walking around with nothing to do because 90% of the PH are Bolsover plated, the PH are doing what they want because there's no enforcement.

The Mansfield PH frim who operate Bolsover cabs doesn't have a sattelite office in Bolsover, his office in is Mansfield which comes under the local Council and has a Mansfield phone number. In a nut shell they are breaking the law because he doesn't have a booking office in Bolsover.

Many of the other firms are plating their cars in Bolsover so to get round the tough testing they have in Mansfield, most firms run their motors for 7 years in Mansfield then licence them in Bolsover with over 300,000 on the clock.

You've got to see the motors in question then you'll see the magnitude of the problem, some of them are death traps.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 7:17 pm 
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Sussex wrote:
An operator can only pass on work to another operator licensed in the same district.


As Brummie has asked, where in the 1976 act does it actually state this?
The part of the act that he posted does not state this.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 7:39 pm 
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grandad wrote:
Sussex wrote:
An operator can only pass on work to another operator licensed in the same district.


As Brummie has asked, where in the 1976 act does it actually state this?
The part of the act that he posted does not state this.

But the judgement I posted does. :wink:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 8:10 pm 
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From the very first day cross-border issues were tested by local
authorities in the Courts, briefly those cases include Dittah -v-
Choudhry, Top Cars -v- Windsor, Powers -v- Bromsgrove, East
Staffordshire -v- Rendell, Murtagh -v- Bromsgrove, and Shanks (Blue
Line) -v- North Tyneside. All these cases have, since the first,
followed the same pattern of determination. It may well be that that is
because a number of these have been heard by the same Judge; or it may
just be that the first decision was of sufficient gravitas to ensure
the same result came forward each time these matters came to Court.



1. However, the fact remains that the overall decision of the Courts has
been that it is unlawful for a private hire operator to sub-contract
work across borders, whatever the circumstances of the initial contract.
The initial view held in Choudhry and Dittah, and upheld in all the
cases since then, is that once an operator's licence is issued, it is
unlawful for that private hire operator to use any other private hire vehicle or
driver than those licensed by the same authority; but that once so
licensed,the car and driver may be used to pick up and drop off anywhere
in the country.



2. Thus in Choudhry and Dittah, the two operators - both licensed by
Birmingham - were making use in Birmingham of vehicles licensed by
numerous other authorities: Solihull, Wolverhampton etc.

This was found to be unlawful, and this was the fundamental case which
said that all the licences -operator, vehicles and drivers - must match.
This would permit sub-contracting amongst operators licensed by the
same authority as themselves, but not otherwise.

3. The Top Cars case: Mr Mahboob Khan, the proprietor of Top Cars, held
an operator licence, vehicle licences and driver licences all issued by
Slough Borough Council. Windsor and Maidenhead prosecuted Mr Khan,
making a case that as he was not licensed by Windsor and Maidenhead, he
was not entitled to take work, or advertise for work, other than in
Slough. Again, the courts held that where the phone rang was where the
operator licence needed to be issued and, once issued, only Slough
drivers and vehicles could be used; it did not matter where the service
was advertised or where the work emanated. Therefore Mr Khan was
acquitted.

4. In the East Staffordshire case, Mr Rendell was wholly licensed by
Derbyshire Dales. His partner Mrs McCartin lived 50 yards away from him,
but on the other side of a bridge which marked the boundary between East
Staffordshire and Derbyshire Dales. The two partners, McCartin and
Rendell, were in the habit in the daily course of their business of
transferring their telephone line between each other when they were out
on a job. The courts held that transferring the line from Derbyshire
Dales to East Staffordshire without having an East Staffordshire
operator licence, and consequently vehicles and drivers also licensed by
East Staffordshire, was unlawful.

5. In the case of Mr Powers, all his vehicles and his office were
licensed in Stratford-upon-Avon, but because this was not a 24-hour
operation Mr Powers diverted his telephone number to his house in
Bromsgrove, and was therefore making a provision in Bromsgrove, for
which he required an operator licence. This worked fine, as long as Mr
Powers had some vehicles licensed by Bromsgrove. However, once he had
got rid of those licences and concentrated on Stratford alone, the
council at Bromsgrove refused to renew his operator licence because
under such licence he could only use Bromsgrove licensed vehicles and
drivers, and has he had none of those it was inappropriate to give him a
licence. His appeal against that decision failed.

6. In Murtagh -v- Bromsgrove Pat Murtagh, who is a senior Magistrate,
had a business on the border of Bromsgrove and Birmingham. She was
wholly licensed in Bromsgrove, but had nine freephones across the border
in Birmingham. Birmingham City Council maintained and insisted that
those freephones had to be served by Birmingham licensed drivers and
vehicles. Acting under some pressure, Mrs Murtagh acceded to
Birmingham's request to obtain an operator licence from Birmingham, and
licensed half her vehicles and drivers with Birmingham.

7. Birmingham and Bromsgrove then embarked on a squabble as to who had
the right of it, with Mrs Murtagh in effect being treated as pig in the
middle. After some ten years Bromsgrove successfully prosecuted Mrs
Murtagh, who then promptly moved her entire operation into Birmingham.

8. The Shanks case is perhaps the final straw that breaks the camel's
back on cross-border. Mr Shanks, wishing to increase his business,
opened an office in Newcastle-upon- Tyne. He held operator licences,
vehicle licences and driver licences for both Newcastle and North
Tyneside, so that his entire operation, like Mrs Murtagh's, was fully
licensed. He even went to the trouble of having business cards made
which advised customers that he was fully licensed in both areas, and
because of that, customers could expect that from time to time
Newcastle or North Tyneside vehicles could be dispatched to fulfil
bookings.

9. Not so, said North Tyneside; that is unlawful. As a North Tyneside
licensed operator, he can only use North Tyneside vehicles - and this,
on trial, was indeed the decision of the Courts. This meant that even a
person who operated his own business from two centres could not even
sub-contract to himself across a licensing border.

10. In fact, the only way that cross-border hiring can become lawful is
by dual licensing. In this respect I quote Lord Justice Kennedy in the
Murtagh case, where in his summing up, not only did he comment on the
abysmally poor legislation which we have to operate under, but also
suggested that Parliament should take steps to correct these problems.

11. In the judgement he said:-

"The facts of this case make it clear that in fairness to private
hire operators, the provision of this statute should be reconsidered by
the legislature as a matter of some urgency. In 1999 it is absurd that a
licensed operator who operates in the area of one district council in a
large conurbation, commits a criminal offence if he instals a small
sub-office, or perhaps even a dedicated telephone line, in an area
controlled by an adjoining district council, because he thereby makes
provision for the invitation of bookings in the second area. To keep
within the law, he must then obtain a whole series of fresh licences:
operator's licence, drivers' licences and vehicle licences for the
second area. This cannot be what Parliament originally envisaged. As the
cost of licences varies, we understand, from one district to another, it
is not easy to see precisely how the problems should be resolved. But
clearly if operators, their drivers and their cars are property licensed
in respect of one area which is responsible for overseeing their
activities, they should not have to be re-licensed elsewhere. The
problem is to some extent the result of improved technology since the
statute was passed, but the law needs to reflect the current state of
technology and not be 23 years behind it."

12. That judgement was given by the same Judge as the one who sat in the
original cross-border case,Choudhry and Dittah. As a result of these
decisions, it is a fact that in some areas in this country, some
councils have dual-licensed vehicles- ie. two plates, two driver badges
and so on.

13. I have to say that nothing I have seen so far suggests to me that in
any way that these Mansfield operators are materially different from
those operations in the cases I have mentioned in this document.

14. Do they take bookings? Yes. Do they hold an operator's licence?
Yes. Therefore, within or without the Mansfield area the only vehicles
and drivers that they can use are those that are licensed in Mansfield.
To reinforce this position, I draw your attention to section 5 of the
Private Hire Vehicles (London) Act 1998. - it seemed
ludicrous to them that fresh legislation should fall into the same trap
as that created by the 1976 Act.

15. Because of section 5, those persons who have an operating centre in
the London area licensed by the Public Carriage Office are the only
people who can legally sub-contract to operators outside the London
area. I can hardly think that Parliament would have responded with this
permissive piece of legislation if it was not clear to them that this
had caused problems elsewhere. It also highlights the fact that the 1976
Act does not contain the same freedom of action, as indeed highlighted
by the Courts.

16. As I see it, if these Mansfield operators had a London office where
their bookings were made, then and only then would they be free to
operate in the manner that they are doing currently.

17. I am concerned about the insurance position. If it is the case that
bookings are being made unlawfully - and I have to suggest that the case
law more than strongly suggests that this is so - then that may well
reflect on the insurance cover; and in this day of ambulance-chasing
lawyers, this cannot be a situation which in my opinion can be left to
chance,

18. In the case of Choudhry and Dittah, these two proprietors passed
their own work to various licensed vehicles. In the cases of Khan,
Powers, Rendell, Murtagh and Shanks, all defendants were principles in
the various prosecutions, but none of those prosecutions involved third
parties. In fact, they were passing work to cars on their own fleets,
albeit licensed in other areas.

19.Mansfield operators are only allowed to operate vehicles licensed by
Mansfield District Council as part of there conditions, but if
they are passing Mansfield bookings onto Bolsover private hire vehicles
and by doing so are invalidating their insurance as this is unlawful.

20.we are talking private hire vehicles,hackneys are another story.ie a bolsover hack would be ok to work from a mansfield base,I refer you to the berwick case.

MANSFIELD DISTRICT COUNCIL
LOCAL GOVERNMENT (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) ACT 1976
PRIVATE HIRE OPERATOR’S
CONDITIONS OF LICENCE
The Operator shall observe and perform the following terms and conditions:
TERMS AND CONDITIONS
1. No operator of a private hire vehicle which is licensed by Mansfield District Council under this Act shall invite or accept a booking for such vehicle, or control or arrange a journey to be undertaken by such vehicle, without first making available in writing or giving orally, to the person making the booking information as to basis of charge for the hire of the vehicle.
2. Every Operator of private hire vehicles who accepts a booking for a private hire vehicle for an appointed time and place, shall give the booking to a vehicle, allowing sufficient time for the vehicle to punctually attend.
3. The Operator, when accepting bookings under the terms and conditions of the licence, shall only operate drivers and vehicles licensed by Mansfield District Council.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 9:28 pm 
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Quote:
As Brummie has asked, where in the 1976 act does it actually state this?
The part of the act that he posted does not state this


LG(MP)A 1976, s62(1)
LG(MP)A 1976, s47(1)(e)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 12:43 am 
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Sussex wrote:
Brummie Cabbie wrote:
But if he also holds an Ashfield Operator Licence then all he is doing is passing the booking from one operator to another & the second operator is then sending a PHV licensed by the same LA that his Operator Licence is issued by & there's now't wrong with that.

An operator can only pass on work to another operator licensed in the same district.

Where does it say that in the legislation?

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 Post subject: Re: Is this right?
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 12:49 am 
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Sussex wrote:
Brummie Cabbie wrote:
So the Mansfield PH Operator licenses one PHV in Mansfield, thereby 'fulfilling' his Mansfield PH Operator Licence conditions. Then he obtians a Bolsover PH Operator Licence, puts as may Bolsover PHVs on as he likes because they are plentiful, & then passes work coming into the Mansfield Operator Licensed Office onto the Bolsover Operator Licensed Office for that second office to cover with Bolsover cars.

Nothing illegal about that!

Think MR JUSTICE MACKAY differs.

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Adm ... /1900.html

That's a 10 paragraph judgment about costs; what's that got to do with it?

Sussex wrote:
Also what provisions allow a council to license an operator not based in their own licensing district?

None whatsoever!!

Sussex wrote:
That's a question I would pose, if asked, to the Bolsover LOs.

If the he has premises in Bolsover, what's the problem?

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Brummie Cabbie.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 1:27 am 
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mancityfan wrote:
Quote:
As Brummie has asked, where in the 1976 act does it actually state this?
The part of the act that he posted does not state this

LG(MP)A 1976, s62(1)

? ? ? ?

That section & paragraph deals with;
62 Suspension and revocation of operators' licences
and the grounds under which an LA can do so.
What has that to do with whether or not the Mansfield & Bolsover Dual Operator Licensed Operator is acting legally or not?

mancityfan wrote:
LG(MP)A 1976, s47(1)(e)

? ? ? ?

That section & paragraph deals with;
47 Licensing of hackney carriages
and states that a district council may attach to the grant of a licence of a hackney carriage such conditions as the district council may consider reasonably necessary.
AGAIN, what has that to do with whether or not the Mansfield & Bolsover Dual Operator Licensed Operator is acting legally or not?

_________________
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Brummie Cabbie.

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 Post subject: Re: Is this right?
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 7:36 am 
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Brummie Cabbie wrote:
That's a 10 paragraph judgment about costs; what's that got to do with it?

My apologies Mr BC, give this version a try. :wink:

www.taxi-driver.co.uk/2906NF02.rtf

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 Post subject: Re: Is this right?
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 7:38 am 
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Brummie Cabbie wrote:
Sussex wrote:
That's a question I would pose, if asked, to the Bolsover LOs.

If the he has premises in Bolsover, what's the problem?

If he is not operating from that premises then I suggest there is a rather large problem. :?

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 Post subject: Re: Is this right?
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 9:24 am 
Sussex wrote:
Brummie Cabbie wrote:
Sussex wrote:
That's a question I would pose, if asked, to the Bolsover LOs.

If the he has premises in Bolsover, what's the problem?

If he is not operating from that premises then I suggest there is a rather large problem. :?


He hasn't got a office in Bolsover or any of it's outlying areas.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 10:28 am 
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well so long as the punters get home, thats all that matters.......... :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Is this right?
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 12:33 pm 
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Nigel wrote:
Sussex wrote:
Brummie Cabbie wrote:
Sussex wrote:
That's a question I would pose, if asked, to the Bolsover LOs.

If the he has premises in Bolsover, what's the problem?

If he is not operating from that premises then I suggest there is a rather large problem. :?


He hasn't got a office in Bolsover or any of it's outlying areas.


Where is his Bolsover operators license address?

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 Post subject: Re: Is this right?
PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 3:07 pm 
grandad wrote:
Nigel wrote:
Sussex wrote:
Brummie Cabbie wrote:
Sussex wrote:
That's a question I would pose, if asked, to the Bolsover LOs.

If the he has premises in Bolsover, what's the problem?

If he is not operating from that premises then I suggest there is a rather large problem. :?


He hasn't got a office in Bolsover or any of it's outlying areas.


Where is his Bolsover operators license address?


Don't think he's got one, he gets round it by his badged drivers who are licensed with Bolsover.


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