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See that's the difference between us Scots and you CC , if it was Scotland going out of the euros on Tuesday i would still keep my Saltire avatar after Tuesday .Were not bitter just proud

yeah.....you dont come across as bitter

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Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
George Carlin

I think CC if you look back at my posts you will find that the posts about Scottish Independence started of with a post with me saying i am not anti English but pro Scottish . That is still the way i feel ,my parents are both English as is my best friend .Like my father i am proud to be Scottish.

#1 it shows commitment to not becoming the kid who always gets beat up,

#2 it's essential to maintain a deterrent,

#3 detterents are basically as good as being able to stomp the world, it creats mutual respect and helps the trigger happy stay in line,

#4 if this isn't put into place and we then need the subs you can't build a fleet of subs in a matter of weeks,

#5 hands up those that would be saying....how did we get so defenceless? if we fell victim to an aggressor nation,

Basically much as I'd love a weapon free world it is the thing of dreams, never in the past present or future will man ever climb into the level that means war isn't a solution, he will wage on anyone and everyone and in todays world the need to be able to stand up for yourself is even more important, what happens if we fall behind and North korea for example thinks ok we'll strike the UK os they can't hit back, if you hadn't noticed the east is getting bold again, but the problem is the east isn't evolved enough to be responsible enough to be the owner of mass destruction weapons,

Much as I like the Chinese, I can see my judgement of them is based on individuals of their people and not their government, I also think there will still be deep resentment in China over Japan and it wouldn't surpise me if when China has all the world money they make Japan their first target (you'll need to do some 1930's history for this one) basically the UK,USA and countries like Germany,France,Spain & Turkey need to form a pact, because we are going to have to stick together to survive, if you do some more history you will find the world money changes hands basically on a 500 year rotation, what we have up our sleeve right now is the ability to invent things still, they do not, all their tech is purchased from western ideas, recently I went to the Tank Museum at Bovingdon Dorset, all the German tanks from WW2 were lets say the difference between a Datsun 120Y and a Nissan Skyline when compared with allied tanks, better built, better designed, this in itself was a flaw, for every German tank like a Tiger the production time was much more than the Russian one that eventually drove Hitler back, the Russian mentality was to build it cheap and quick and outgun the enemy and not worry about losses and it worked, but the German mind is imo the best innovator in the world and that's why I think they are very valuable to a union in the future,

Anyway for the Liberals around here, see it this way, sometimes you have no choice but to fight for freedom, if you have an arrow and the enemy has a machine gun, you are going to get beat.

I'm sure you mean that.....but you dont appear to type like that.

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Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
George Carlin

Have to disagree CC all my posts are pro Scottish and are not anti English but may could be anti Westminster . A wee tune that will maybe enlighten you about what makes me proud to be Scottish .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOa64BUV5qU

lol tone.......its my perception, perhaps i'm wrong....but its my perception nevertheless.......and i'll add i'm probably more anti westminster than you, personally guy fawkes was on the right track, but sadly not funded by the cia

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Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that.
George Carlin

He was however the only man ever to enter parliament with good intentions

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BTW, this £1.35 billion is chump change compared to the final cost.
You could probably pay off half of the UK's national debt with the full cost of replacing trident.

It really is time the UK stopped pretending it's any kind of world power these days. Whether you believe in nuclear deterrents or not, this price is just sheer lunacy.

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@ Doom.

If the Argies had decided to invade the Falklands now, instead of 30 years ago, do you think with our current troop numbers and the state of the RN's surface fleet, that we would have any chance of ejecting them?

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On the subject of repeating the mistakes of history, consider this.

France in the 1930's nearly bankrupted their country building the Maginot line. Fat lot of use that was, although it did give the occupying Germans some nice bomb proof billets for their troops.
The French and the British foolishly prepared to fight the last war, when the Nazis were preparing for the next one. They paid dearly for that mistake and they nearly lost the lot.

The biggest nuclear threats these days are not from the Russians or the Chinese or even the Americans with loads of warheads. The real nuclear threats are the countries with a few or the terrorists who might acquire one.
You can't intimidate the real fanatics who will gladly die for their beliefs. They would happily fry the planet if they thought it was their God's will.

Nuclear missile subs didn't prevent the 1982 invasion of the Falklands and better ones still won't deter conventional aggression.

Oh and I'll tell you this, not a drop of oil will leave Falkland waters before some kind of deal is struck with the Argies.
Without the use of South American territory, it's just not financially viable.

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They wouldn't get near the islands again, most of the oil exploring is being done by American owned firms, so there's reason number one, and here's reason number 2




It's not about the Arg anymore anyway, much bigger threats are growing by the day from elsewhere, the Arg thing is a political bluff to gain home support, facts are though is the only Arg that want the Falklands are their government, the normal Arg person doesn't much care, and a lot of Arg ppl now own property on the islands anyway.

I'm going to assume you misread the question Doom.

Rewind to 1st April 1982.
The UK was in the process of implementing a defence review, in reality another cost cutting exercise. The majority of the cuts were to fall on the RN. It was to be reduced to a surface fleet of 50 frigates and destroyers, based in the North Atlantic performing an anti submarine role within range of shore based air cover.
Aircraft carriers were not required and in future the RN would not operate any. A deal had already been struck to sell the Invincible to Australia, and the Hermes was due to go to the breakers.
The ice patrol ship Endurance was on her final patrol, as she too had fallen foul of John Knott's axe. Even the Royal Marine detachment was considered too expensive to maintain.
Meanwhile the Tory government was spending a colossal sum replacing Polaris. (does all this sound familiar BTW?)

Now the real truth is, if the Argies had waited even 6 months, they could have taken the Islands without firing a shot and the RN would not have had the ships to recover them.

Thatcher would have been left with egg all over her face and Britain's most unpopular PM (as she was at the time) would have ended up as popular as a fart in a spacesuit. The Tories would have been slaughtered by the CND loving Michael Foot in 1983.
Trident would have been cancelled and the yanks unceremoniously chucked out of Greenham Common and The Holy Loch.

Now I realise that the Falklands now have a decent defence which is more than enough to stop the Argies having any ideas of another invasion, but if the 1982 invasion hadn't happened when it did, none of these defences would be there now, and its likely the Malvinas would have been Argentinian for most of the last 30 years. The UK would certainly be a different country by now as well.

If the Argies invaded now instead of 1982, The UK would not be able to reclaim the islands. Again we have no aircraft carriers and the surface fleet is smaller now than was envisioned by the Tories in 1981. The Army is also substantially smaller now, and the islands are still out of range for the RAF. (They don't even have the Vulcan bombers any more.)

Trident's replacement is a costly white elephant, which this country can ill afford. Nothing has really been learned. The same mistakes are being made all over again.

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I think you will find that the Falkland Islands are within easy reach for the modern RAF. One of the arguments for getting rid of aircraft carriers was that with the modern aircraft and inflight refuelling it is a lot cheaper and safer. the pilots of modern aircraft do not even fly the things most of the time, it is all done by computer.

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Grandad,

The RAF's latest Typhoon aircraft has a maximum combat radius of 750 nautical miles. That's less than the old Vulcans. To reach Port Stanley in 1982 required a complicated in flight refuelling schedule involving 11 tankers, all flying from the same airstrip on Ascension island.
It would require an even more complex and impractical operation to do the same with a Typhoon.

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