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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 7:19 pm 
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At the end of all this, after the largesse of government, in handouts to the self employed, what is the price that will have to be paid? Is this the end of self employment as we have known it? Probably. One certainty is that the levels of national insurance and taxation will have to be equalised with contributions made by the rest of the population. Where I was making (perfectly legally) NI class two contributions of around £10 a month, my wife was paying employee contributions of £90 a month. To end up with a state pension £50 a week lower than mine. Taxation is another area where there has been obvious inequality. But the real elephant in the room has surely to be self employment status. 5 million “ self employed “ people in this country? The chancellor of the exchequer will have them in his sights to be sure. The private hire industry is a joke, and has been for years, with employers of drivers claiming they don’t employ drivers at all, even though they rent vehicles and data heads to drivers who work exclusively for them. There is a day of reckoning ahead, and that day is coming sooner than some might think. Is there light at the end of the tunnel? Oh yes! Trouble is, it’s the light of on oncoming train.
Don’t run away this will only affect the Uber’s. It’s on its way to get you all, as I see it. Unless you think differently.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:09 pm 
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jimbo wrote:
At the end of all this, after the largesse of government, in handouts to the self employed, what is the price that will have to be paid? Is this the end of self employment as we have known it? Probably. One certainty is that the levels of national insurance and taxation will have to be equalised with contributions made by the rest of the population. Where I was making (perfectly legally) NI class two contributions of around £10 a month, my wife was paying employee contributions of £90 a month. To end up with a state pension £50 a week lower than mine. Taxation is another area where there has been obvious inequality. But the real elephant in the room has surely to be self employment status. 5 million “ self employed “ people in this country? The chancellor of the exchequer will have them in his sights to be sure. The private hire industry is a joke, and has been for years, with employers of drivers claiming they don’t employ drivers at all, even though they rent vehicles and data heads to drivers who work exclusively for them. There is a day of reckoning ahead, and that day is coming sooner than some might think. Is there light at the end of the tunnel? Oh yes! Trouble is, it’s the light of on oncoming train.
Don’t run away this will only affect the Uber’s. It’s on its way to get you all, as I see it. Unless you think differently.


Most so called operators have been no better than uber,they have practised the same business model as them but shouted foul when they came on the scene.It was the same operators pursuing changes in operating laws that allowed the ubers to come on the scene.SELF destruction springs to mind.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:12 pm 
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the quid pro quo will be tax rises to help fund the extra government borrowing both NI and Income tax

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:17 pm 
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We had a meeting with our drivers last year to suggest that they would soon have to be employees. We have a couple of drivers who decided to stay self employed at the time and 3 others who didn't want to change at all and left. The rest became employees and they are glad they did now. It is payday for them on Thursday this week and they will be getting 100% of their normal earnings due to the County Council paying the full contracted price of our school runs for March. We still don't have any information regarding April or beyond and we still haven't heard how to claim the 80% from the Government. Things will be tight but we felt that it was the right thing to do.
Going forward I would expect that there may be an increase in the basic rate if income tax , no idea how much but that will mean that the lowest paid who currently pay no tax will still pay no tax but others will pay more. I dread to think how the self employed will be looked at but they will have to pay more I am sure.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:35 pm 
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I think everyone will be paying more taxes once this mess is sorted.

NI increases for self-employed has been hinted at by the Chancellor, and I think a thorough review of self-employment is due. That's if the Supreme Court don't get there first.

Personally I think in the long term our trade will become a more employed trade, and many will not be happy about that, including operators who have used the bogus self-employment scam to feather their nests, which has led to the current situation where many drivers are pot-less and some are suicidal.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 07, 2020 8:50 pm 
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hopefully a lot of government spend can be recovered by cancelling HS2 and similar vanity projects without hitting the tax payer to hard, but NI contributions will definitely be changing for the Self employed, they tried to once before but it didnt stick but it will next time.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 11:30 am 
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Im retiring in 2 years anyway......catch me if you can

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 08, 2020 7:10 pm 
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Should this mess be sorted within three months, or at least the arse end of it sorted, then I'm not sure it will be horrendously bad financially.

The 2008-10 financial mess was maybe on par with what a three month wipe out could lead to, and in time we all recovered from that, despite austerity.

So let's be positive and hope once a vaccine is found and given to us all, we can get on and all earn a good living.

Providing, that is, the Chinese sort out their eating habits.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 09, 2020 11:38 pm 
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Heathcote wrote:
Most so called operators have been no better than uber, they have practised the same business model as them but shouted foul when they came on the scene. It was the same operators pursuing changes in operating laws that allowed the ubers to come on the scene. SELF destruction springs to mind.

Bang on.

Sussex wrote:
Should this mess be sorted within three months, or at least the arse end of it sorted, then I'm not sure it will be horrendously bad financially.

The 2008-10 financial mess was maybe on par with what a three month wipe out could lead to, and in time we all recovered from that, despite austerity.

I'm not so sure. Suspect the main restrictions will be lifted by the summer, but not so sure how long the effects on the economy will last. Could be years.

Of course, it depends on the location. Here we're very dependent on the students and university, and they're effectively shut down until September at the earliest. And overseas tourists and golfers won't be here in the summer either.

But mabye more domestic tourists once the hotels and guest houses open again, and people want to get out and about, but who knows?

As for the trade, suspect a few drivers won't be back, especially those near retirement, or semi-retired with pensions, or part-timers, blah, blah.

And I couldn't believe how quickly the ranks cleared here when it all kicked off. I'm suspecting a few drivers disappeared back 'home' overseas while they still could, so some of them could well never be back, but again, who knows?

On the other hand, with all the job losses elsewhere in the economy, there could be a queue of new drivers waiting to start once things settle down.

So I think some things will change, and the trade will be different, particularly if there's some movement on the self-employment thing.

But those predicting some kind of wider societal change are, I suspect, wide of the mark :roll:


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2020 1:18 am 
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StuartW wrote:
Heathcote wrote:
Most so called operators have been no better than uber, they have practised the same business model as them but shouted foul when they came on the scene. It was the same operators pursuing changes in operating laws that allowed the ubers to come on the scene. SELF destruction springs to mind.

Bang on.

Sussex wrote:
Should this mess be sorted within three months, or at least the arse end of it sorted, then I'm not sure it will be horrendously bad financially.

The 2008-10 financial mess was maybe on par with what a three month wipe out could lead to, and in time we all recovered from that, despite austerity.

I'm not so sure. Suspect the main restrictions will be lifted by the summer, but not so sure how long the effects on the economy will last. Could be years.

Of course, it depends on the location. Here we're very dependent on the students and university, and they're effectively shut down until September at the earliest. And overseas tourists and golfers won't be here in the summer either.

But mabye more domestic tourists once the hotels and guest houses open again, and people want to get out and about, but who knows?

As for the trade, suspect a few drivers won't be back, especially those near retirement, or semi-retired with pensions, or part-timers, blah, blah.

And I couldn't believe how quickly the ranks cleared here when it all kicked off. I'm suspecting a few drivers disappeared back 'home' overseas while they still could, so some of them could well never be back, but again, who knows?

On the other hand, with all the job losses elsewhere in the economy, there could be a queue of new drivers waiting to start once things settle down.

So I think some things will change, and the trade will be different, particularly if there's some movement on the self-employment thing.

But those predicting some kind of wider societal change are, I suspect, wide of the mark :roll:


When this is all over,everyone will be on the bones of their a*** for the foreseeable future,there will be very little money spare for the use of the likes of us,the economy as we knew it is going to struggle for a long time.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2020 8:05 am 
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heathcote wrote:

When this is all over,everyone will be on the bones of their a*** for the foreseeable future,there will be very little money spare for the use of the likes of us,the economy as we knew it is going to struggle for a long time.

I think a lot will depend on how businesses deal with their employees now. If the majority get furloughed and get 80% of their wages paid by the government and then some of them get their wages made up to 100% by their company then they will be OK. We also have the people who are working through this either by going to work in places such as supermarkets who will clearly be getting full pay and many are getting overtime that they didn't think they would get, and the ones that can work from home and still get paid. Pensioners have a small advantage here as well, their pensions have not been affected by this, in fact they have just had their annual increases. People who are on minimum wage have just had an increase, People who were already on benefits have not had them cut.
There are some people who will not get treated how they should by their employers and I can give you an example of one. My grandson works for Ryanair and they are trying to share the work out between some of the employees that work in the offices. So they have reduced the number of hours that people work and obviously that means that their pay has reduced. But the company could have some of the staff working full time and some of the staff furloughed and they would be better off. The main losers, in my opinion will be the ones whose company don't survive or have greedy bosses and the self employed who have been under declaring their income for years.
Don't forget most small businesses will not be paying business rates this year and many will qualify for at least a £10,000 grant as well. Unfortunately for my business, as it stands we don't qualify for the £10,000 grant because our office is in a business park and we don't get assessed for business rates separately and we pay our rates through the park owners. This is the same for most businesses that work from business parks and markets or office blocks although the Government are looking into this.
We can start to claim the payments for our employees from 20th of April and they should take between 4-6 days to be paid and if the County Council continue to pay our contracts we will be fine and not have to defer any bills.
The Government schemes have been brought in to help people through this, not to hinder them. I am reasonably confident that things wont be a bad as it could be for the majority.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:18 am 
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grandad wrote:
heathcote wrote:

When this is all over,everyone will be on the bones of their a*** for the foreseeable future,there will be very little money spare for the use of the likes of us,the economy as we knew it is going to struggle for a long time.

I think a lot will depend on how businesses deal with their employees now. If the majority get furloughed and get 80% of their wages paid by the government and then some of them get their wages made up to 100% by their company then they will be OK. We also have the people who are working through this either by going to work in places such as supermarkets who will clearly be getting full pay and many are getting overtime that they didn't think they would get, and the ones that can work from home and still get paid. Pensioners have a small advantage here as well, their pensions have not been affected by this, in fact they have just had their annual increases. People who are on minimum wage have just had an increase, People who were already on benefits have not had them cut.
There are some people who will not get treated how they should by their employers and I can give you an example of one. My grandson works for Ryanair and they are trying to share the work out between some of the employees that work in the offices. So they have reduced the number of hours that people work and obviously that means that their pay has reduced. But the company could have some of the staff working full time and some of the staff furloughed and they would be better off. The main losers, in my opinion will be the ones whose company don't survive or have greedy bosses and the self employed who have been under declaring their income for years.
Don't forget most small businesses will not be paying business rates this year and many will qualify for at least a £10,000 grant as well. Unfortunately for my business, as it stands we don't qualify for the £10,000 grant because our office is in a business park and we don't get assessed for business rates separately and we pay our rates through the park owners. This is the same for most businesses that work from business parks and markets or office blocks although the Government are looking into this.

Do not forget which a lot seem to,all this financial assistance has to be paid for in the future,it possibly will come as a big shock to the majority that taxes,N.I. other charges levied against the working population are going to rise dramatically.
This leaves less money to be spent on the likes of us.
We can start to claim the payments for our employees from 20th of April and they should take between 4-6 days to be paid and if the County Council continue to pay our contracts we will be fine and not have to defer any bills.
The Government schemes have been brought in to help people through this, not to hinder them. I am reasonably confident that things wont be a bad as it could be for the majority.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2020 4:33 pm 
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Of course, it depends on the location. Here we're very dependent on the students and university, and they're effectively shut down until September at the earliest. And overseas tourists and golfers won't be here in the summer either.

Maybe.

But this fellow who should know a bit is a bit more positive in respect of timelines.

https://metro.co.uk/2020/04/09/ex-chief ... -12530664/

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2020 4:40 pm 
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The main losers, in my opinion will be the ones whose company don't survive or have greedy bosses and the self employed who have been under declaring their income for years.

In the short term you could be right, but in the longer term is there any reason to believe that the services we all wanted before this mess started we won't want when this mess, or a large chuck of it, is over?

In respect of our trade I'm 100% certain at least 10% of the trade will not return, and you have to wonder how inviting this trade is to new entrants, especially when one takes into account the end of EU free movement of labour.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:19 pm 
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we will leave lock down with up to 3 million additional unemployed

There will be no shortage of new entrants to our trade or other areas of the gig economy because they will find there are 1000's chasing every PAYE vacancy

But self employed vacancies are not subject to a selection process only a DBS check

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